Episode 4: Epigenetics and The Titanic - Transcript
[00:00:00] CA: [00:00:00] hi teamsters. I'm Carey Ann.
AE: [00:00:16] And I'm Alison and this is podcast without an audience
CA: [00:00:19] where two friends pick two topics and find intersectionality
AE: [00:00:22] or not,
CA: [00:00:24] or not so far, we've only had one that we did not.
AE: [00:00:28] So yeah, we're been pretty, pretty good averages. Yeah. You just told me that,
uh, baseball has batting averages.
CA: [00:00:34] Well, I did. So, uh, baseball is my favorite sport because it is so okay. So
the baseball,
AE: [00:00:42] nobody gives a shit about baseball. Let's talk about me. Do you notice, do you
notice anything different about what I'm wearing?
CA: [00:00:50] Um, you look great, but that's
AE: [00:00:52] thank you so much.
Oh my God.
[00:01:00] Seriously against us
CA: [00:01:03] at least me. You're having a great day.
AE: [00:01:07] No, I mean, my day is, I mean, it's not ungreat um, what I was going to say...
CA: [00:01:12] I'm no longer going to refers to things as bad. They're just un-great.
AE: [00:01:16] It's like a very unbirthday. So this is the first, um, recording that I'm doing without
wearing my sweatpants.
CA: [00:01:23] Oh, the gray ones, but
you're right.
AE: [00:01:26] I have consistently worn the same sweat pants, although just so we're clear, I
have washed them
pants.
They're they're very comfortable, but I have literally worn them every time we've recorded.
CA: [00:01:39] Well, I feel like we've leveled up then. Um, because have you noticed anything
about what I'm wearing today?
AE: [00:01:45] Well, you have your vagina monologues shirt that you just puffed up your chest.
So I can read in case I hadn't noticed
CA: [00:01:52] my lil vagina monologues, crop, top crop, top drop top.
AE: [00:01:58] We got, where, [00:02:00] uh,
CA: [00:02:00] design archives.
AE: [00:02:01] Yeah. Oh, that's a cute second hand. I love design architect store. Yeah.
Sponsored by design archives.
CA: [00:02:08] But, uh, today is the first day. I have not worn blue jeans since
AE: [00:02:13] it's because you want, you think the audience can hear the superiority of your
jeans to my sweat pants.
CA: [00:02:19] I was also raised
by a man who, to this day I have never seen, not wearing khakis and a button up shirt. Oh, wow.
Yeah. Occasionally he will wear a polo that has like just the four buttons. Oh. But I've literally
never seen this man in a t-shirt and jeans or shorts. There's a very awkward picture of him
wearing swim trunks.
And it's the only picture ever seen of my dad. Yeah. Not wearing khakis. Yeah.
AE: [00:02:44] The pool photo. Yeah. It was my mom stepped on a glass, a piece of glass at the
pool in 1990s and, um, spent like the next five years, like trying to dig it out of her foot, just like a
side note. Hi mom.
CA: [00:02:58] Our [00:03:00] Parents are going to be so
proud of us.
AE: [00:03:01] So, um, what are we talking about today?
CA: [00:03:04] So, Alison, have you ever heard, uh, the argument of nature versus nurture? I
have. Okay. So you're familiar. Yeah. Just with kind of the basics.
AE: [00:03:15] So, you know what, you're, what you're exposed to versus your biological.
Yeah, exactly.
CA: [00:03:22] The big question is, is it who you are or how you were raised and like, why are
you the way you are?
Why? And the answer is both, it's both who you are intrinsically and how you were raised.
Recent studies suggest that both of these things can not be passed onto your children and
grandchildren. Both of them, both, both who you are currently and how you were raised have
impacted your genes. Huh? Um, and this is epigenetics, epigenetics.
Epigenetics.
AE: [00:03:54] That's a good Scrabble word. It's like 3000 points.
[00:04:00] CA: [00:04:00] Pig is in the middle of it, which is what I would go for. If I were actually
playing Scrabble. I'm so bad at Scrabble.
AE: [00:04:06] Yeah, me too scramble sucks. Ray loves scrabble I know how to convert him to
dominoes. Cause I'm like, please do not make me play another game of Scrabble
CA: [00:04:14] at the intersection of psychology and gene science, which is what I wrote
because I couldn't remember the word genetics.
The very next word is it's epigenetics. So it's the intersection of psychology and genetics is
epigenetics. And this is the study of how the environment and other factors can change the way
that our genes function. Close your eyes. Let's go back in time. Okay. To ninth grade biology.
AE: [00:04:40] No. Why,
why,
CA: [00:04:43] why didn't we learn in ninth grade biology.
AE: [00:04:46] Well, my entire high school career, I carried a small purple pillow around
because I had a fracture in my back and the chairs were so uncomfortable. I had to like wedge a
small pillow between my lower boundaries. Jealous. No, [00:05:00] everyone was like, what the
fuck is wrong with her? Oh, yeah.
CA: [00:05:02] I would have been your friens.
Thank you. Welcome. Um, so the most notable thing about my ninth grade year and my ninth
grade science class was they still had their roll-in TVs on carts. Oh my God.
AE: [00:05:15] The morning announcements.
CA: [00:05:16] Well, we were not that cool. You didn't have morning announcements. We had
the pledge of allegiance. Oh, that was it.
AE: [00:05:23] But what more do you need? Nothing this is America
CA: [00:05:27] so, um, but they would roll in the cart, you know, a couple of times a year for
movies and my ninth grade science class, we watched Gattica and we watched, um, Oh gosh,
what's it called a day? The day after tomorrow. Like the apocalyptic movie,
AE: [00:05:43] ah, the day after tomorrow.
I'm not 28 days later. No, correct. That makes a lot more sense. Okay. Because the day after
tomorrow talks about global warming and 28 days later is a zombie apocalypse movie.
CA: [00:05:58] Oh, [00:06:00] okay. So I can see your confusion.
Yeah.
Yeah. Cause you just kind of looked at me like I had three heads, like
AE: [00:06:07] I'm like dissecting it in my, would you be watching a zombie apocalypse movie?
CA: [00:06:11] And because now they are both apocalyptic films. Sure. Um, but one's about
climate change and global warming and not in fact about zombies. That's true. Yeah. So, um,
what else did we do in science class? We learned that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of
the cell. I remember drawing like animal cells versus plant cells.
AE: [00:06:33] I remember doing the, the bean, like the Beanstalk, like the, the genes in the
square, the punnant square hundred square. Thank you.
CA: [00:06:40] I'm so glad that you were, I'm so glad that you're bringing us to the pendant
square. We're going to actually talk about what second. Yes, but we talked about DNA. Okay.
So double helix, the double helix, which is a step up from the single helix.
Right. Which creates the DNA. Yes. Or where the. Is DNA. Um, [00:07:00] is that, do I claim to
be an expert? I do. Yes.
For this episode, PhD, carry on speaking.
I am the expert in all things, science, and gene science, and
AE: [00:07:13] I like how your voice gets, ASMR, continuing theme. This
CA: [00:07:17] is what happens when I put my
PhD without an Aud.
How low can you go DNA basically lays the groundwork for the development of physical and
psychological characteristics. We're not going to talk about this a ton. Um, but if you were
paying attention or if you weren't in high school biology class, this should sound familiar to you.
You should know kind of the basics.
After listening to this podcast, I would encourage you to call your biology teacher
AE: [00:07:46] or add them on Facebook. Cause you know, they're cause they're like
1000% on Facebook.
CA: [00:07:52] Yes. And you can go and earn a few retroactive brownie points by telling them
that you remembered one of your lessons. Yeah. Moral of the [00:08:00] story, moral of high
school biology class.
What you should have gotten from it is that we've all got genes. We've all got G E N E S. JE and
right. Yeah. So back when you were a little zygote baking in the oven, a baby, the universe
pulled out its Punnett square notes from high school biology to decide that you Alison will have
blonde hair. And like your older
sister who got the recessive gene
She's a ginger, and got that recessive hair gene because neither of your parents are redheads
question mark.
Nope. No. Okay. There's also determined. That's how you were going to be. And, uh, it kind of
laid the groundwork for some of your personality stuff. It's why you're the sparkling amazing.
AE: [00:08:43] You mentioned, so are so sparkly. I mean, sparkly is how I'm described for sure
sparkly and approachable, totally approach.
Fucking I'm so bitter about that. I will never let that go. Amen forever and ever. Amen.
CA: [00:08:58] Alison is the most [00:09:00] approachable person I know, but almost
immediately, as you're baking as a zygote, can your genes begin to change? And they change
for a whole bunch of different reasons, environmental factors. Like if your mom has a good diet
or if your mom's stressed alot, like these things go
AE: [00:09:15] in and like, while the bait, like literally during
CA: [00:09:17] the baking.
So this is like the pre, uh, this is
AE: [00:09:21] the, the gestation period. Just gestational. Yeah. Doctor Dr. Carey Ann.
CA: [00:09:27] I did not claim you gave me this title and I'm honored to have it. Yeah. Know,
AE: [00:09:33] by the power vested in me. Right.
CA: [00:09:35] When you're little genes in your mom's womb begin to change, they leave little
markers kind of like when we went to the moon and we put a little flag on the moon and we're
like, we are here now and
AE: [00:09:49]
we never went ... .No, I'm totally. It was like, but we're is also flat.
CA: [00:09:55] We are no longer having this conversation.
AE: [00:09:59] Um, [00:10:00] okay. We went to the moon and stuck the flag in. Yep. And
CA: [00:10:02] that's love to do right. And that's exactly what happens on your genes is a little
person comes in, sticks a little flag on your DNA and it's like, Oh, we changed something here.
You're changed. Yeah. Ah, okay. Does that make sense? Yeah.
AE: [00:10:16] You with me so far, so something external can. Essentially change your genetic,
CA: [00:10:22] correct? Your makeup the way they,
AE: [00:10:24] wow. That's crazy. Isn't it? Wild? That is that's
CA: [00:10:29] insane. Just wait until we get into some of the research with all of this. I'm so
excited to tell you about it.
Um, also it was so hard keeping this under 18 pages of notes, right?
AE: [00:10:41] This is not your,
CA: [00:10:42] this was not a dissertation, right? Dr. Carey Ann, maybe in the
AE: [00:10:45] future. Um, when you do your doctoral,
CA: [00:10:48] Yeah, but epigenetics is the study of the physical changes that affect how our
genes are expressed and thus whether particular proteins are produced.
In other words, uh, the [00:11:00] changes in the gene leave a little Mark or that gene has been
physically altered and that chemical Mark is the epigenome. Okay. So Aboriginal epigenome,
the epigenome can be affected by positive experiences, having a loving and supportive
relationship with a caregiver, um, opportunities for higher learning, um, or negative experiences
like environmental toxins or stressful life circumstances.
Okay. Makes sense. You can have positive changes and you can have negative changes.
Okay. Does that make sense? Sure. Cool. What environmental factors might influence
epigenetics. I see your face trauma, right? Trauma, uh, also diet smoking, drug use exercise,
early stress and childhood trauma or any trauma specifically childhood trauma.
That's when you're cause that's
AE: [00:11:49] when you're being now. That's when you're malleable.
CA: [00:11:53] Exactly. Yeah. So what's interesting about this is the connection between the
physical self and the mental self. And this goes two [00:12:00] ways. So we already know that
like poor diet and exercise has some correlation to depression.
Like if you're not eating well and you're not moving. Okay.
AE: [00:12:08] Oh, okay. Right. Like it's so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard. Especially there's a
pandemic. You get into a routine 28 days later. Most certainly in another form.
CA: [00:12:21] So it's been out in multiple apocalyptic films at the same time. I'm here. Cause
we've got the climate change thing going on.
We got zombies. Yeah. And bath, bath, salt, still a concern.
AE: [00:12:34] I mean probably in certain communities probably maybe Myrtle beach, shout out
to Myrtle.
CA: [00:12:44] Yeah. So, um, but what epigenetics tells us is that depression is a chemical
reaction in the brain that's misfiring or just not producing enough, like happy chemicals.
Okay. Serotonin dopamine, et cetera. Or if they [00:13:00] are producing the happy chemicals,
they're not being absorbed appropriately. Okay. Maybe one day we'll get into the science of
depression, because I think that that's really interesting too,
AE: [00:13:08] but also like super light and perfect. Exactly.
CA: [00:13:13] Yeah. Um, but the way that your genes work to produce these happy chemicals
or the absorption of them has fundamentally changed.
Okay. Epigenetics is essentially proving that it's not just in your head. Like you can be
depressed and have a poor diet and poor exercise. And those two things don't have to have
anything to
AE: [00:13:34] necessarily correlate. Exactly. Wow. Cause one, cause it could be from your
past, from your genetic. Exactly. That's just, we have no control over anything
CA: [00:13:45] now.
Uh, the rules are made up and the points don't matter. Like no we're going to get very technical
here. Okay. And also for funsies, I have never once looked up how to pronounce anything for
this [00:14:00] podcast. I'm not about to start now. Why would you,
AE: [00:14:03] so why that's going to stumble through this together. Okay.
Perfect. And points for Hufflepuff. No, you're Ravenclaw.
CA: [00:14:10] So sorry. I mean, how disrespectful get
AE: [00:14:13] it together? Huh? Yeah. Well, we're, we're under
CA: [00:14:17] the, kind of the same person. So we're
AE: [00:14:19] underdeveloped as a house. Both of us. We're just not in the limelight. It's
CA: [00:14:24] fine. We need our own book better. I mean, Luna Lovegood. So there's that.
Oh, and you have Cedric degree, but name one other from either of our houses. I can't right.
The second that's shame. Maybe one day I am not the Harry Potter nerd. I claim to be back to
epigenetics, epigenetics. So to get very technical, one example of an epigenetic change is, uh,
DNA. Methylation the addition of methyl group or chemical gap to the part of the DNA molecule,
which prevents certain genes from being expressed.
Um, and I will not [00:15:00] be taking any questions at this time
got it. Wanted to put that out there. Um, for those of you who now might be wagging your fingers
and calling the top wash don't that, and to you, I would have to say there are four categories of
epigenetic modifications. Go look them up with the Google. Not right now. Like, do not pause
this to go look it up.
Yeah. Check it out, um, back to the point early childhood trauma, or just trauma in general is the
reason that if you remove a scary, traumatic thing, that the body still remembers it even years
later. And we're going to talk about this more in a second, but it's kind of like if you're standing in
the middle of the road and an 18 Wheeler comes at you over and over and over, that's a
traumatic event.
Like you're constantly dodging 18 wheelers. That's terrifying. My God. Yeah. And then if you're
still standing in the middle of the road, but have removed the 18 Wheeler, you. Still continue
AE: [00:15:57] to learn the anxiety of whether [00:16:00] or when basically when it's going to
show up. Right.
CA: [00:16:02] Exactly. Um, and that metaphor actually comes from a movie called resilience,
um, which we will tag below in our Instagram post for this week so that you can go and check it
out.
Um, I think it's kind of hard to find, but they do a lot of training, right? Hmm. No, I've never heard
of it.
AE: [00:16:19] Yeah. And I've heard of everything. So you have
CA: [00:16:21] just, okay. Let me tell you what is so cool about epigenetics, other than it can be
temporary or permanent. So at some point, like if you do enough work, so to speak, you can
reverse the marker.
You can take the flag off the moon. Oh, you've got to go back to that specific spot to take the
flag off the moon
is this
AE: [00:16:43] actual genetic change that can then be reversed or is this psychological?
CA: [00:16:48] Well, it's an actual genetic change that can either be reversed or fades with time.
Okay. So a permanent one's going to be there until something happens to change it [00:17:00]
again.
Oh, however, a temporary one.
AE: [00:17:03] I guess I never
understood or ever thought of that. I thought we were just born with our genetics and then that
they are what they are, what they are and then why,
CA: [00:17:13] and they're the same. Yeah. And all the studies are now disproving. That, that
was kind of the theory for everything I've ever heard is like, this is just the way it is.
And you can't change it. You just got to work with what you got. And epigenetics is like, no,
actually your genes change all the time. Wow. Yeah.
AE: [00:17:29] I mean, and how would they know? Because they're not studying all of our genes
constantly.
CA: [00:17:33] Well, Oh, there was a, um, a discovery of about like a centuries worth of health
records from this really small isolated community in Sweden
AE: [00:17:46] Sweden
CA: [00:17:48] I love your accents. I just really, I need to start. And it's a gift. Yeah. Just
AE: [00:17:53] so offensive. I'm so sorry.
CA: [00:17:56] Um, but in the super small isolated [00:18:00] community, For whatever reason
their health workers have been preserved for over a hundred years. So we had this massive
collection of data and people went in and studied and realized that there were years where
people in this community didn't have enough to eat, like either due to drought, famine and
famine, potato fam.
That was Ireland. That's not very similar. Very, very similar in 2002 is I think about the time they
were discovered, or at least that's when the study found that men in this region who had plenty
of access to food between the ages of nine and 12. So still in those formative years, went on to
have male grandchildren with higher rates of diabetes and heart disease.
So what that means is the bodies of humans in this particular isolated region of Sweden had
adapted. Like their genes had physically changed when they didn't have enough food. So then
when they have enough food, their genes changed again. [00:19:00] And now they're for several
generations, people are developing diabetes because their ancestors had.
Been changed to, to
AE: [00:19:10] adapt, to adapt. Wow. That's fucking crazy. Was that clear? Yes. Yeah. Cool. So
yeah, it's a generational genetic development that basically filtered future generations.
CA: [00:19:22] Right. But we can't saying anything other than circumstances, um, which some
of this reminds you of like Darwin's theory of evolution.
So is just a theory, just a theory of evolution that our gene totally.
AE: [00:19:36] We totally believe in evolution. We do. That's. I just want to make, I
CA: [00:19:40] appreciate that. Very clear. It's just, I mean, you can't prove evolution, so it's still
concerted theory,
AE: [00:19:47] but you can't prove gravity either
CA: [00:19:50] through gravity. There's a scientific method to prove gravity.
And is that still a theory?
AE: [00:19:54] Is it, is it talk to [00:20:00] Siri on gravity? Yes, please, please. I mean, we don't
have to hold, keep talking. Okay.
CA: [00:20:07] So while you're looking up, whether or not gravity is a theory, that's been proven.
Okay. So, um, it's a multi-generational effect and they found that the grandchildren of women
who were pregnant during this time were more likely to have fat newborns
AE: [00:20:24] chunky with these, with the roles are on the arms, shall be
CA: [00:20:32] with the feet that
AE: [00:20:35] have baby fever.
Not, not at all. Have you seen, uh, like a fucking tiny air Jordan or a tiny shoe? You're just like,
Oh baby chucks.
CA: [00:20:48] I cannot wait for you to one day have kids, you know, so that I can buy you. Cute
little baby shoes. Yeah, my kid's going to be. The
AE: [00:20:56] cutest baby ever. Yeah. Ray's gonna make sure that kid's gonna like walk out
and [00:21:00] Chanel and like,
CA: [00:21:00] Oh, I have Gucci belts.
Yeah. Yeah. And the thought is that, um, like through the normal process of embryos and
stripping, like their genetic markers, even though they were born to people who had
experienced famine, their genetic markers have been stripped of that gene because suddenly
they had food again, so that they were being born like normal to above normal weight in order to
adapt to their environment and wow.
Which is just super cool. That is cool. Okay. But here's the like most wild of all the studies that. I
found that have been done. Okay. So a recent study showed that mice can inherit experiences
of fear from their grandfathers. Like, uh, so the grandfathers, according to a research done in
2013 from Emory university, male mice were trained to associate, uh, one specific odor with an
electric shock, which is horrible.
It's [00:22:00] fucked up. I know
AE: [00:22:01] in 2013 doing that shit. I mean, they're
CA: [00:22:04] still doing this shit today. No animal testing also it does give us data. That's kind
of interesting and good for I should. I just don't love it. No, it has to be another way to do it. I
don't like it. Male mice were trained to associate an odor with an electric
AE: [00:22:18] shock.
Do we know why? Why just
CA: [00:22:20] male, I guess, to narrow all the different, uh, factors. Yeah. Yeah. And the male
mice started to learn to associate that specific smell with being shocked. So they began to have
a fear response whenever they smelled it. Yeah. Which is natural. I would too surprisingly, they
found that the smell also startled the next two generations of mice.
Oh, wow. Which means that this behavior was inherited even if, or even though the mice were
conceived through in vitro fertilization, which rules out social learning theory because they
weren't raised right. To observe this behavior. So it changed part of the gene in the mice for two
[00:23:00] generations. So that takes the same fear.
AE: [00:23:02] That's so scary. Also gravity is a theory. It's called Newton's theory of gravity.
Okay. I love you so much. Sweet angel.
CA: [00:23:11] I may not always be right, but I always believe what I say. I
AE: [00:23:16] might marry fully. I might not always wait. Always there when you call. I'm not
always there when you call, but I'm always on time.
I don't know what that means. Not always in when you, Oh, please. On time.
CA: [00:23:31] I appreciate. Yeah, but what I think is so interesting about this is epigenetics has
proven that, you know, you can alter your genes from positive and negative experiences wild to
me. Well, and what I think is so cool about this is if we can inherit fear from our, the ancestors.
AE: [00:23:50] And that's so interesting because I think we all have relationships with family
members, but due to certain circumstances, though, those can only go [00:24:00] back. Yeah. A
certain amount of time. Right. So I never knew my grandfather on my dad's side. So I don't
know. Firsthand what I might have. Right. You know, take care of them had inherited.
Thank you. Inherited from him. And yeah, it's crazy people who are adopted, which you work,
you know? Yeah.
CA: [00:24:21] I work in the field of adoption, um, in foster care. So I feel like you miss so much
when a parent is deceased or when you know you no longer live with them too, you don't, you
miss out and you miss out on the opportunity to figure out where you get some of these traits
and characteristics from grandparents or even great-grandparents.
So,
AE: [00:24:46] and even also having relationships with your family that aren't very like
forthcoming or yeah. Oftentimes grandchildren and grandparents have a lot of focus on the
grandchild. And I think that we [00:25:00] oftentimes forget to dive into. Older generation stories
and their history and what they've experienced, because sometimes it's complicated.
And, um,
CA: [00:25:14] but, and I feel so lucky my grandfather lived to be 101 and wrote his memoirs,
but in his memoir, he doesn't actually tell anyone how he felt about anything. It was just, this is
what happened. This is what happened. This is what happened. Um, I know, and I like, even at
the time when I was reading the very first draft, um, I wanted to ask him more and he was just
like, well, I only want to talk about happy things.
So even at 101, and I was, I'm an adult. He still didn't want to share, you know, any trauma, uh,
which is just fascinating. Absolutely. Cause I think that, that's how you heal. A lot of trauma is
talking about it in your generational. Yes. [00:26:00] Yeah.
AE: [00:26:00] And also therapy. That's why therapy so important.
CA: [00:26:03] Yeah. Um, I've heard a lot of great ads for different therapy.
I
AE: [00:26:09] like that. It's so accessible now that makes it. That's just fantastic.
CA: [00:26:15] Honestly, I think that's one of the best and maybe most unexpected outcomes of
the pandemic. Is it suddenly things that were not accessible to people are now much more
accessible? Like I can join a yoga class that's happening in Colorado because the yoga teacher
is deaf and therefore it's going to be accessible to people with hearing loss or therapy therapy.
If you. Are more comfortable in the language other than English, you can now find a therapist,
even if they're not in your same geographic location. Absolutely. And do it online. Like that's
huge and revolutionary. Absolutely. And research is showing that even though it's not, in-
person, you're still kind of getting most of the same benefits.
I think in-person is always preferable. Yeah. But not possible. [00:27:00] So
AE: [00:27:00] I think to me it makes it less scary because I can access, access it from my
sweat pants. My favorite gray sweatpants that I've worn for five weeks straight. Um,
CA: [00:27:12] if all your other athletes, your is in the wash and all you have, you just have a
favorite.
Um, but you know,
AE: [00:27:20] I, I do think that the, the computer portion and I think we're getting a little bit off
topic, but to me, it, it,
CA: [00:27:25] I mean, it's all relevant. Good. Yeah. Well,
AE: [00:27:28] not just as good. Not at all, but in a therapeutic or a therapist, uh, scenario, I
think it's comparable.
CA: [00:27:35] Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Um, in fact, I started working with a new therapist just after.
Co.. I think about the time. I think that everything really shut down and I've never met my
therapist in person, even though like she lives with in the same city that I do. Um, and her
husband taught at the college that my brother went to. So our paths have definitely crossed
before. [00:28:00] Right. I've only ever met with her online and yeah, I still feel like she's great.
And I've enjoyed working with her. Absolutely. Shout out to therapists. Yeah. So going back to
the movie resilience, kind of the topic about the 18 wheelers. Yes. So that film actually came
from the idea of building resilience after you've experienced, uh, childhood adversity. Okay. So.
I wasn't planning when I first started writing this, I wasn't planning on having two topics in one,
uh, just because I feel like I wanted to spread them out more.
However, after researching epigenetics and getting my PhD, I realized that ACEs is actually the
other, our side of this exact same coin. And I can't miss the opportunity to cover both at once.
So what is it? What is ACEs? So ACEs is an acronym and it stands for adverse childhood
experiences. Okay. And essentially, uh, potentially traumatic events that occur in, in childhood.
For [00:29:00] example, experiencing violence, abuse, neglect, witnessing violence in your
home or community, losing a family member to death, incarceration, or separation, substance
abuse, et cetera, all contributes to like the 10 most common things that a child might have
trauma from. Yeah,
AE: [00:29:18] sure. So there's 10 there's there's
CA: [00:29:21] takes 10 ACEs.
Yeah. Okay. Um, and this, the study linked these 10 traumatic events to chronic health
problems, mental health problems, and substance use and adulthood. Oh, okay. Okay. So let
me tell you a little bit more about the study. The study was done at Kaiser Permanente from
1995 to 1997 and included 17,000 adults.
So we're in the mid nineties. That's huge. Yeah. So of those two thirds of the participants
answered yes. To at least one of the indicators and I'm going to read those indicators.
AE: [00:29:56] Okay. Do we know anything about like the [00:30:00] demographics,
CA: [00:30:00] um, the, we do. And I'm going to tell you about that just a second. Okay.
First, I really want you to just like soak all this in. Okay. Okay. My body's ready. Yeah. So of the
17,000 adults. Two-thirds of the participants answered yes. To at least one of the questions on
the ACEs or ACEs questionnaire of those two third 87% answered. Yes. To more than one. So
anywhere from two to 10.
So with an ACE score of four or more, the likelihood of chronic pulmonary lung disease
increases by 390%. Oh wow. Depression by 460. Uh huh. And you are 1000, 220% more likely
to have attempted suicide. Oh my God. Other things that they studied where the relation
between these 10 indicators and liver disease later being sexually assaulted [00:31:00] or
experiencing in your personal violence or domestic violence, just the list goes on smoking.
Um, you know, I'm blanking on the others, but those are. Like very real physical problems and
mental health problems that they have associated with childhood trauma. So back to your
original question, like
AE: [00:31:22] weather. So to me, it's like either, I mean, whenever somebody is gathering data
for a study like this, they try to make the, the people like as diverse as possible, or they usually
focus on like one particular area.
Right.
CA: [00:31:37] So I think most people, when they hear this data automatically assume that it
was done in a community of color or maybe even a food desert. Um okay. Where access to
healthcare was shit. I mean, it's America. We, no one has great healthcare at this point. It
doesn't seem it's tough. Yeah. What's so shocking about this is the [00:32:00] 17,000 people
who were surveyed were mostly white middle to upper class college educated individuals with
good jobs and great healthcare in San Diego in San Diego, specifically
AE: [00:32:11] in San Diego.
Is that because San Diego is a pred, predominantly white area. That's
CA: [00:32:16] it's because that's where Kaiser Permanente is.
AE: [00:32:19] Ah, okay. So he was like, let me just cast the net kind of close to home and see
what we get. So that's interesting because that, that kind of takes away the idea that trauma
only happens in certain communities.
CA: [00:32:31] Exactly. Um, prior to this most research that was done about it, abuse or neglect
had actually. Like the research had been done on poor people of color who happened to live in
the inner city. So the data made, it looked like the only place that abuse neglect happened was
with poor communities and poor health.
And that was like a POC issue essentially. Um, and therefore white, wealthy people were
immune to these kinds of problems or the kinds of problems affecting people who [00:33:00]
were poor, thus perpetuating classism and racism. It's interesting
AE: [00:33:04] because. I feel like the, and this could be wrong, but the group of people that
they studied is going to have a different sense of trauma, perhaps depending on their situation.
Do you know anything about like, what were, what were the question? Let me read the
questions to you. That would be helpful because to me it's just like, even going back to the
Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's like, okay, so what are we focused? Is this the regular
Mazlow's or the inverted? Because that can make a huge difference.
CA: [00:33:35] Great question. And a great reference to think.
AE: [00:33:39] Oh gosh. Was I our third
CA: [00:33:40] episode? I think so. Yeah. Wow. I feel like a pro now throw my baby. Okay. So I
am actually going to just read the questionnaire for you. It's kind of long, but there are only 10
questions. Just the questions are really wordy. Okay. Um, and we're going to talk about all the
issues with this after I finished reading it to you.
So. [00:34:00] Start thinking about maybe some of the potential issues. Okay. Quick disclaimer,
this might be very triggering for people who have experienced trauma, their conversations about
abuse, neglect, domestic violence. Okay. Basically anything that you can think of that was
traumatic in childhood. So if you need to fast forward through this part, go for it.
I totally understand. Also I'm using the plural you here. However, it might sound like I'm talking
to you, the listener specifically, please don't feel like you have to answer these questions. Call
your therapist if you need to. Okay. So while you were growing up during your first 18 years of
life, number one, did the parent or other adult in the household often swear at you insult, you,
put you down or humiliate you or act in a way that made you feel afraid that you might be
physically hurt?
Number two, did a parent or other adult in the household often push, grab, slap, or throw
something at you? Or did they hit you so hard that you had marks or were injured? [00:35:00]
Number three, did a person or adult at least five years older than you ever touch or fondle you,
or have you touched their body in a sexual way or attempt, or actually have oral, anal or vaginal
intercourse with you?
Do you often feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were important or special
or that your family didn't look out for each other, feel close to each other or support each other.
Number five, did you often feel that you didn't have enough to eat, had to wear dirty clothes and
had no one to protect you or that your parents were too drunk or high to take care of you or to
take you to the doctor?
If you need number six, were your parents ever separated or divorced? Number seven. That
seems like a
AE: [00:35:40] big one. Separate or divorce. Yeah. I mean, that's like 50% of the population at
this point. I mean more than that now, I think at the time, I don't know the statistics for the
nineties, but yeah, that would be like the percentage that you said at least answered one.
I would, it's probably the majority would be for that particular one that
CA: [00:35:59] an upper [00:36:00] class, um, communities divorce is a lot less common
because I guess she signed prenups and there's like, money is a factor it's not just about right.
Falling out of love with somebody. Sure. Whereas in lower to middle-class families, we're still
focused on love and that being the driving force behind marriage, um, not the upper-class
people don't marry for love.
AE: [00:36:23] Y'all don't love each other.
CA: [00:36:25] Um, I definitely think that we're looking at the demographic that was interviewed
and received this survey. That's a good point. Yeah. Um, but you're probably right. That was.
May have been the most, most common one number seven. Were any of your parents or other
adult caregivers often pushed, grabbed, slapped, or had something thrown at them?
Or sometimes they're often kicked, beaten, hit with a fist or hit with something hard or ever
repeatedly hit over at least a few minutes or threatened with a gun or knife. Mm. Okay. Uh,
number eight, did you live with [00:37:00] anyone who was a problem drinker or alcoholic or
who used street drugs was a household member depressed or mentally ill or did a household
member attempt suicide and number 10, did a household member ever go to prison?
Okay. Pre 18 years old. Um, so let me get back to my notes. Okay. Um, so there are some
limitations to this study and first it wasn't expansive and didn't take into account like community
violence, racism, ableism, and disability, queer experiences. Yeah. Uh, food insecurity in your
community. Things like that, that we know are traumatic.
This, I think Kaiser really anticipated that this would be a jumping off point and not the final 10
questions, except that it's remained kind of the final tank one
AE: [00:37:48] 10. Small in the scheme of things, it seems to focus on the experiences around
you as opposed to,
CA: [00:37:58] Oh, I think I forgot one. [00:38:00] Let me find it also for number seven, the
language initially said was your mother or stepmother often push grab, slap, or had something
thrown at them in newer iterations of the ACE questionnaire.
And now says, were any of your parents or adult caregivers? Oh, okay. Well that's inclusive.
That's good. Changed. You know, at least one thing about it over the year.
AE: [00:38:21] So to me it seems this is focused on your surrounding specifically, not
necessarily like family related interpersonal relationship related, as opposed to trauma, that
might be, um, from a friend.
Or a stranger or even within a media. So this is covering maybe a smaller percentage, maybe
CA: [00:38:46] solutely and it's also, you know, it doesn't take into account like a historical
trauma. So, you know, black people have stomach racism. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:39:00]
So there are a lot of updates that need to happen. There are a lot of concerns here, but it was a
good jumping off point.
And essentially it did prove a connection between your early experiences and your later health
and mental health. So we're going to talk about one of my heroes, Dr. Nadine Burke Harris.
Okay. She wrote a book called the deepest well healing, the long-term effects of childhood
adversity. So just South of San Diego, where the Kaiser Permanente study was done under San
Diago sound like Jaffar.
About 10 years later, Dr. Nadine Burke Harris is a pediatrician and family practitioner who opens
up a clinic in the Bayview hunters point community in San Francisco. Okay. So same state, but.
Like there's some differences between San Francisco and San Diego. San
AE: [00:39:54] Francisco is really ex I mean, I don't, I've only been to, I have not been to San
Diego.
San [00:40:00] Francisco is really expensive. It's really gorgeous. That's where we got engaged
last year. That's right. And we, we were, um, we actually had a conversation with our Lyft driver.
This was like pre COVID too. This is like right before everything shut down. But she discussed,
um, the standard of living in, in San Francisco and everything being just so expensive.
And she said that she knew of somebody who made, like, I think in the seventies a year and still
received some type of government assistance because of their situation with their family
CA: [00:40:31] and the cost of living in that cost of living. Absolutely. Yeah, no, that doesn't
surprise me. And this, the Bayview hunters point area is much less a fluent than that.
Um, like high crime rates. Poverty. Um, it's also a food desert, I think, meaning that there's just
not a lot of access to good healthy foods. Yep. Um, within a certain mileage in certain
population density, um, this is like one of those places where you expect [00:41:00] family
dollars and dollar generals to pop up and take advantage of people because it's the only grocery
store near.
Yeah. By my
AE: [00:41:05] grandmother grew up in Bowser, Louisiana, which is a food desert and all they
have is a pizza hut and a dollar store and a gas station. There's nowhere to buy fresh that she's
moved to Shreveport hashtag Shreveport but yeah,
CA: [00:41:21] but that's essentially the problem is that when you. We're telling people to eat
better.
Um, and at the same time, not giving them access to better food options or affordable food
options. Yeah. So Dr. Nadine Burke Harris goes in and opens this clinic and immediately she
starts seeing kids come in with an ADHD diagnosis and she says, quote, my patients, ADHD
symptoms, didn't just come out of the blue.
They seem to occur at the highest rates in patients who are struggling with some type of life,
disruption or trauma. She put together, this wasn't a mental disorder, but actually a biological
process that disrupted normal functioning. So something [00:42:00] triggered the, yeah. So
something flipped the switch. And if we're thinking again about epigenetics, there was a marker
that flipped, and now this child is exhibiting ADHD symptoms that may not have naturally been,
they may not have been predisposed to.
Wow. Um, so what she did is she, um, basically pulled together community supports and
resources provided wraparound services, asked their guest and counselors as therapists and
counselors to come into her office and work with the children and family who were experiencing
trauma to provide, um, resiliency factors against ACEs.
Okay. So one of the things that she comments in her Ted talk is that, um, The ACEs study had
been done years before, and she'd never heard of it until she started digging in deeper, trying to
figure out what was going on with her clients. Right. And it was finally like, why has this been
buried? We, this is the issue.
[00:43:00] Like this is our health crisis. We have got to fix this and she's doing just that. And the
hunters Bay, Bayview hunters point area. What people seem to be thinking is that toxic stress,
which has trauma impacts ACEs. And this is not experienced just as an individual, but could
also be transmitted from one generation to the next, at the genetic level.
So, and that's how ACEs and epigenetics come together with childhood trauma. Wow.
Psychology and science and you know, social work and all the things Dr. Walk-ins right on
together. Thank you for coming to my
AE: [00:43:36] Ted talk. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Watt kittens Watson.
CA: [00:43:45] Uh, so I will now give back my PhD title.
I'll hold this for the time being. Yeah, you might,
AE: [00:43:51] you know, if you need it. Yeah, sure. All right. Well, that was fantastic. Thank you
so much for that. You're welcome. So what do you [00:44:00] have for us? We're ready to take a
journey with me. Hang on. Let me prepare
CA: [00:44:03] myself.
AE: [00:44:04] Okay, please do. Okay. Prepare your body today.
We are going to be talking about a very historical event that was then created. Timelessly in
cinematic form. Okay. Okay. We are going to be talking about the Titanic.
CA: [00:44:24] Thank God. I am so excited. I have never seen the Titanic the whole way
through.
AE: [00:44:28] Cause it's like five that, well, just the boat sinks, let me just spoil that for you
CA: [00:44:34] right?
I;ve gotten to that point in the movie. Like I've seen the beginning and I've seen the end. So
now I never actually have to see the whole thing because you're going to give me, I'm going to
give you an
AE: [00:44:42] inside. Scoop the scoop. This does not cover any Nudie scenes by the
specifically.
CA: [00:44:48] Paint me like your French girls,
AE: [00:44:49] right. Pay me.
Yeah. Is that what she said? Yeah. That's exactly what she says. Like your French model.
Yeah. Something like,
CA: [00:44:57] I know the quote. I didn't actually know it was from that [00:45:00] movie.
AE: [00:45:02] It is. It totally is.
CA: [00:45:04] I do know the, my heart will go on
AE: [00:45:06] song. Yeah. This is sponsored by Celine Dion. Which was like one of the five
CDs.
My family owned was the Celine Dion too, growing up. So yeah. All right. My dear. So on March
in March, 1909 work started on the Titanic ship and it continued for almost two years. So it took
two years to build the actual ship. Wow. On May 31st, 1911 Titanic's hull, or basically the body
of the ship, the part that goes into the water right.
Um, was set into the water. So they had this big, huge ceremony about the Titanic is finally
going to be submerged in
CA: [00:45:46] water, a champagne on, Oh, they do that before she sales. Right. So
AE: [00:45:50] she's not, she's not ready.
CA: [00:45:52] She's just in the water.
AE: [00:45:54] Um, so more than like a hundred thousand people came out to even see this
portion [00:46:00] of the, um, the launching of the boat into the water.
So it was already going to be like a huge deal even before it was even done. Wow. Okay. So
CA: [00:46:10] sending telegrams to their besties for you to be there,
AE: [00:46:15] or like, get your shit together. We're having a girls week,
CA: [00:46:18] I'm going to go and
AE: [00:46:20] we're going to see America. So it sat in the water after being launched for
another full year while the interior was being decorated.
And the final touches were being kind of put on the ship. So HGTV had a long time to kind of get
it. So
CA: [00:46:37] this is where they iceberg proofed it and unselect
AE: [00:46:42] and right. So, um, they claimed that the ship's designed was state-of-the-art at
the time. Okay. Um, but that kind of. There's a lot of theories about having said that it kind of
was doomed from the start.
I
CA: [00:46:57] mean, it's why you don't get someone's name tattooed [00:47:00] on you ever,
like your relationship will be doomed from that point on that's
AE: [00:47:04] true. Not a lover, anything way the ship had a double line haul. So the bottom
portion of the ship was basically double lined. It also had 15 quote-unquote water, tight
compartments that had, um, that were throughout the bottom of the ship.
Okay.
CA: [00:47:23] Go ahead and call that fake news, right?
AE: [00:47:25] False ad. Yes. So, um, these seemed to be discredited pretty early on because
the way that they were designed was the walls of these 15 compartments were technically water
tight. However, the water tightness only went up a certain amount of feet. So if there was water
coming consistently from one to the other, it kind of just messed up the whole design, then
CA: [00:47:54] you've just kinda put in, um, like a river rock, like the water will eventually.
[00:48:00] Exactly.
AE: [00:48:00] Yeah, exactly.
CA: [00:48:02] Yeah. You may have a nice little whitewater experience for someone who
brought their kayak,
AE: [00:48:08] but it was the waterproof walls or partitions that made the magazine, the
shipbuilder, it called it practically unsinkable. So that's what kind of coined the term at the end of
the ship and the ship we'll get into this later, but the ship had sister ships that were also claimed
to be unsinkable as
CA: [00:48:28] well.
Like the Britannia,
AE: [00:48:30] the Nina, the Pinta, the Santa Maria. That's correct. We'll get to it. Okay. Okay.
CA: [00:48:38] Cause I think one of our favorite authors wrote a book, a book, so one of them,
AE: [00:48:43] none of the top of my head. So that's fine. Me later. Yep. Um, Additionally, there
was another fatal flaw was the fact that the ship did not have enough lifeboats on board.
CA: [00:48:56] Okay. I remember. Okay. I do remember that part of [00:49:00] the movie. Yeah.
So
AE: [00:49:01] it had 16 lifeboats, um, and four collapsible lifeboats were, which were kind of
like a new thing. Okay. Um, that could fit a little bit more snugly in, in the ship, not take as much
space.
CA: [00:49:14] They were like the tubing material. Like if you go tubing now, um, I
AE: [00:49:20] don't actually, I didn't come across in my research what the material was as
opposed to the yeah.
But we can speculate wildly. I
CA: [00:49:26] think that that's what we should do. Yeah, sure.
AE: [00:49:29] Um, so all of these together could have accommodated like 1200 people. Okay.
And problem is weight that the ship was carrying about 2,500 passengers. 2,435 to be exact so
less than half, which means that even if the boats were loaded at full capacity, it would have
only saved one third of the people on board.
The crazy part of this is that the number of lifeboats exceeded the [00:50:00] requirements at
the time. So they even had more lifeboats that were like necessary to have
CA: [00:50:04] bylaw. Now that's super fucked up, right? Oh my God. Yeah. I don't think they
do. They mention that in the movie.
AE: [00:50:12] Probably not. This is in them.
They're focused on Leanna. Yes. The next excerpt is from a history.com article. Okay. Quote,
the Titanic created a, quite a stir when it departed from its maiden voyage from Southampton,
England on April 10th, 1912. After, after stops in Sherbert, France and Queenstown Ireland, the
ship set sail for New York.
End quote. So many of those aboard were wealthy and really important people. This was like
the biggest news at the time. Okay. I
CA: [00:50:46] mean, it costs five even now. Yeah. Yeah. To get a ticket and then it costs a
AE: [00:50:54] lot of, yes. So rich people, um, you know, didn't want to miss out on taking a spin
on [00:51:00] the, you know, unsinkable vessel and the company that, uh, created the ship was
called white star and its managing director, Jay Bruce eyes may and his companion quote-
unquote, which I was like, Oh yay, good Thomas Andrews.
Uh we're on the ship. And he was the ships builder. Um, and they were there. So JP Morgan, I
know him. Yes. So his international Marine shipping trust controlled, but white star line. So that
whole company, right? Um, he was, he planned to be present on the ship, however he canceled
last minute due to business matters
CA: [00:51:43] good decisions.
Yes. So he got man that's fortuitous,
AE: [00:51:48] the wealthiest person. The wealthiest passenger, his name was John Jacob
Astor. The
CA: [00:51:55] fourth is that who we get John Jacob
AE: [00:51:57] Jingleheimer Schmidt. That's what we're going to call him at least. [00:52:00] So
he was heir to the Astor family fortune. So not only to be the richest person on board, but it was
said that he was the richest person in the world at the time.
Wow. The equivalent of $87 million,
CA: [00:52:13] which is nothing anymore. It's 30 more
AE: [00:52:16] people applied back in, blah, blah, blah, blah.
CA: [00:52:18] This was lot. Uh, are we in 1912? We are. Is this the start? And 1912, isn't it?
Yeah. The first episode of Downton Abbey Oh my God. You would love it. Um, but people are
answering a telegram and it's the Titanic has just sunk.
Yeah. So that's episode one, BBB
AE: [00:52:38] to the telegram. Okay. Um, So John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith had been in the
spotlight for a while because he married an 18 year old woman named Madeline Mandalis, uh,
who was 29 years younger than him. This happened, of course, after he divorced his first wife
[00:53:00] naturally. Yes.
So the owner of Macy's. I's adore Strauss and his wife, Ida. I know where there was. Yeah. And
the Margaret Molly Brown who earned her name as the unsinkable, Molly Brown. Um, she was
coined that by helping people get into their lifeboats and keeping everybody calm. So we'll come
back to her, but she was kind of a historical figure that came out of this.
So the famous population that was on board normally had purchased first-class ticket. So at this
point we have three classes. We have first class, second class, third class tickets. Okay.
Obviously we know that the first class tickets were going to be the most important people. That's
where
CA: [00:53:41] John, Jacob Jingleheimer Smith is from.
Right. He was correct.
AE: [00:53:45] Is it Smith or Schmidt?
CA: [00:53:46] You said Smith a second ago, but I always thought it was Schmidt. Oh, I was
just copying you.
AE: [00:53:50] Don't listen to me. So the P the people who were employed on the ship or in the
second class, So that's important. Really? I
CA: [00:53:59] thought the [00:54:00] people who were employed on the ship would be like third
class.
AE: [00:54:03] So thrower while there wasn't a lower third class is like, you're sharing a room.
It's like a hostel kind of situation. You're renting a bed at that point. And what class was Leo
when Leo was in third, I believe that would make sense. I don't remember, but that also had two
VHS tapes. Okay. So the Titanic's departure from South Hampton on April 10th did not go off
without a hitch.
There was a small coach fire that was discovered in one of the bunkers. Uh, and apparently this
wasn't uncommon at the time. They're like, Oh, there's a fire. And
CA: [00:54:40] they're like, it's fine. So as comforting.
AE: [00:54:44] Right? So after assessing the situation, the captain decided that the fire could be
maintained on the sea and they carried on and they just left.
CA: [00:54:52] Well, I mean, water does cancel out fire in the games. Okay. For vendors
[00:55:00] AE: [00:54:59] also the ship, when it was leaving, it was literally within four feet of
another ship. So it very, almost got in an accident before it had even left. So the, the vibes are
not good at this point. Okay. Yeah.
CA: [00:55:11] I'm not feeling this.
AE: [00:55:14] According to a theory, um, by a few experts that fire we were just talking about
became basically uncontrollable.
And that could have been one of the reasons for the sinking of the ship besides the iceberg.
CA: [00:55:29] It felt like the iceberg may have had more to do with it though, if you're already
weakened by carriage fire.
AE: [00:55:35] Well, and the fire would have, what they're saying is that the fire would have
caused them to be basically like full steaming ahead, which ha which would have made them
less likely to have seen an
CA: [00:55:44] iceberg.
That makes sense. So I'm trying to be very present with you. I'm also already thinking about
intersectionality and I know that we're going to come back to it, but I feel like it's very similar to
looking at the pandemic and being like there's an iceberg and then [00:56:00] saying, but there's
this other thing.
Yeah. Anyways, we'll come back to that at some point, I just want
AE: [00:56:05] to go on, you're saying the pandemic versus like mental health,
CA: [00:56:09] the pandemic versus mental health, or looking at trauma and being like the
trauma is the carriage fire. And we are so busy talking about everything else that's happening in
the world and how we need to just adjust and like, correct.
Our course when people are still focused on the carriage fire, which is also, you know,
debilitating. Right. Absolutely. So, okay. But we'll come back. To our intersectionality later,
AE: [00:56:37] we will. I am not done on April 14th. After four days of sailing, the Titanic
receives six warnings of icebergs during that time before they finally made contact with one.
Okay. So about 11:30 PM on this day, April 14th, 1912, a lookout saw an iceberg. So the
engines were moved into reverse and the ship was [00:57:00] turned. Okay. Okay. So all,
although, although the ship did not make direct, head-on contact with the iceberg, the ship
grazed along the side of the iceberg, because they didn't hit it head on, it took the staff members
a while to figure out that something was really wrong.
So basically had carved out a gash in the side of the ship and how terrifying if they had known
sooner that the iceberg had, uh, slashed a 300 foot hole in the ship, they might have been able
to do something, uh, as far as alerting their teams.
CA: [00:57:31] Yeah, but really what do you do with limited lifeboats and a 300, well, 300 foot
long.
That is,
AE: [00:57:38] that is true. By the time the captain saw the damage, um, along with Harland and
Wolff Wolf, Thomas Andrews, who was the creator of the ship and the architect, uh, five
compartments out of the 16 that we talked about were full of water. Yeah. So at this point,
Andrews believed that the ship would sink in an hour and a half.
And at this point [00:58:00] they called the operator to, to call for help and order lifeboats to be
unloaded. I mean
CA: [00:58:06] like, ideally you would have a few other boats nearby who could send additional
lifeboats. Well, they're
AE: [00:58:13] middle of the Atlantic at this point. So
CA: [00:58:15] both sent me very quickly back then.
AE: [00:58:18] It's just, it's just scary.
It's just shitty circumstances. So about 30 minutes after the accident happened, There was a
really chaotic scene happening on the, on the, on the deck. Um, people, everyone was like
attempting to evacuate. Yeah. And it was super disorganized because they didn't, no one does.
That's actually going
CA: [00:58:38] to happen.
Exactly. It's the unsinkable couple ship.
AE: [00:58:40] So the lifeboat it's, we're designed to hold 65 people. Those are big lifeboats.
Yeah. They were, I mean, they're actual boats. Okay. They, I mean, I know that we want to say
that they were inner tubes, but they were actual,
CA: [00:58:53] at least the majority of the morning, there were still some like inner tube,
AE: [00:58:57] potentially inner tubes, not okay.
[00:59:00] CA: [00:59:00] Or tubes, right? Yes. But inflatable.
AE: [00:59:03] So there were, we sold 65, the first left with only 28 on board. That's how
chaotic. Yeah. So nobody really knew the proper procedure. Exactly. So tragically, the situation
happened kind of over and over again, almost every lifeboat left, um, underfilled and some with
only a few passengers.
So at the time, the quote law of the sea required a women and children to board first. And, um,
and then only after all of the women and children were put on the life boats, that men could then
reassess the lifeboats, right. There were a couple of accommodations for elderly or disabled
people, men, really men.
Um, but after an hour and a half passed and the ship had not sunk, um, they kind of realized
that they had a little bit more time. So it ended up holding off for about three hours, um, which
[01:00:00] was like three hours panic, right? Yeah. Not ideal at all. So men kiss their wives and
children, goodbye and family said goodbye to their pets and families were split up overcast.
There were pets on board. I know, right? So this next excerpts from that historic history.com
article. Yeah. Okay. So quote, Thomas Andrews, the Titanic's chief designer was last seen in
the first class smoking room, staring blankly at a painting of a ship on the wall.
CA: [01:00:33] Let me just tell you if my ship was going down, that's exactly where I would be
contemplating my life.
AE: [01:00:39] Basically. It was like, Oh, let me have a cigar Aster deposited his wife, Madeline
into a lifeboat and remarking that she was pregnant. Asked if he could accomp accompany, her
refused entry. He managed to kiss her goodbye just before the boat was lowered away. Is that
not? It's just a fucking terrible Isidor.
Straus was [01:01:00] offered a seat based on his age. He refused any special accommodation
and him and his wife, Ida. She didn't want to leave her husband. So the couple retired to their
cabin and died together in their cabin.
CA: [01:01:12] I mean, you got to go sometime I know,
AE: [01:01:15] go in the together. Yeah. I mean, that's a Titanic, that's a, that's an iconic scene
in the
CA: [01:01:21] movie.
Yeah. So Rose Lang isn't a door, just a piece of wood. I don't really know. Like I said, I've never
actually seen this movie the whole way through, but, um, I love, love all of the memes about all
the ways that Jack could have fit on found the
AE: [01:01:37] door.
CA: [01:01:38] Absolutely. And I mean, sure. Buoyancy may have been an issue, but they kind
of at least try the little harder, like she was willing to die for this man.
She did not let it go, but I
AE: [01:01:49] know it's tough. It's tough. Molly Brown, however, helped guide people into the
life boats. And she was the bad-ass bitch. She was like, are you good? She was the one
organizing [01:02:00] everything. Okay. And she stayed until the very last lifeboat. And then she
got on board. I
CA: [01:02:05] just had, I have to say, I would like to believe that that would be me.
I would love to honestly,
AE: [01:02:11] I mean,
CA: [01:02:13] main character of this story, saving people. I'd be terrified. I would be sitting
there smoking a cigar, looking at a picture of a boat thing and well, exactly. Let me make better
choices in my next life. Let's unpack this
AE: [01:02:29] at 2:20 AM on April 15th, 1912, the ship finally submerged below the water in the
end 706 people survive the Titanic
CA: [01:02:40] sinking.
That's so much less than I thought, I thought you were about say 706 people died. No, no. This
story does not have a happy end day. It doesn't mean that was the ending, I assume. Well, I
mean, you may have
AE: [01:02:55] more, but yeah. You know, it was sad. Of course it's assumed that the ship
[01:03:00] sank because of like the hole in the ship.
Um, however other theories have emerged over time. One such theory is that the ships steel
plates basically that the hall was made out of, um, could not withstand the cold water in the
Atlantic. This would have caused the plates to shift and cause a leak one second. Oh.
CA: [01:03:19] Or maybe even buckle that would make sense.
Yeah.
AE: [01:03:23] Um, but regardless of why it. Happened. And the world was pretty much in shock
and because of the times, like communication was really off, right. Nobody really had the full
stories of, there was a lot of misinformation kind of floating around.
CA: [01:03:38] And I think because of that, people probably, um, hyperbolically were telling this
story, like they were exaggerating everything
AE: [01:03:47] thousand percent.
So like, just so theatrical it's. Yeah.
CA: [01:03:53] And then single
AE: [01:03:53] bullshit, exactly sinking and only, you know, a percentage of the people
surviving.
[01:04:00] CA: [01:03:59] Yeah. And I know this was 1912, was this like April of 1912. So I'm
wondering if when April fool's day became a thing, because this would have made an amazing
April 1st, Joe,
AE: [01:04:12] this was a
CA: [01:04:15] news traveled slowly back then
AE: [01:04:17] it took a whole year for them, but yeah.
Um, so there was a lot of misinformation, including where the ship had actually sunk.
CA: [01:04:29] I mean, that makes sense. Like people who survived were yeah.
AE: [01:04:33] In the open ocean, you can't be like there, cause like it all becomes right. So the
iceberg
CA: [01:04:39] that there were multiple icebergs.
AE: [01:04:40] Yeah. Um, it took 73 years to find the wreckage of the Titanic.
That's a
CA: [01:04:46] long time, 73 years. So 1912 plus 73. I'm going to let
AE: [01:04:51] you do that. Math is 85. Yeah. Um, so I'm going to do a little bit of fun factoruni
yes. So a [01:05:00] woman named violet Jessop was a British nurse who worked on the ship.
She's either the most lucky or most unlucky person, and I will let you be the deciding factor.
Okay. So she was working as a nurse on the ship. She was ordered up from the deck, uh, once
iceberg was hit. Okay. Um, she didn't make it onto a lifeboat, so she was one of those people on
the water. But after eight hours, she was one of the lucky ones who was survived by the rescue
boat that showed up. Oh, wow.
So there was a rescue ship that showed up, but the majority of people had passed away at that
CA: [01:05:31] point. So she is Rose and
AE: [01:05:35] potentially violent Rose could be, I think she was a nurse.
CA: [01:05:40] Yes. Rose was like, uh, she was a ne'er do well. Yeah. She was like better.
AE: [01:05:45] Yeah. A trust fund baby. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but four years later, Um, violet was on
board, the Britannic, which was the Titanic sister ship that boasts, that boat also sank.
And it [01:06:00] was, uh, it sank because it was either hit by a missile or it ran into a landmine
there, astonished. Sure. But there was some type of explosion. Oh honey, just stay off the boat.
I know the boats sank. The
CA: [01:06:11] Titanic. You just stay off boats. You stay out of your life. Also at least two
generations are going to be terrified of boats.
AE: [01:06:18] Exactly. That's why you were afraid of fish is cause you're related to this lady
and you haven't done.
CA: [01:06:24] I'm not going to
AE: [01:06:24] continue. So then this bitch gets on the RMS. Olympic survived that one too.
CA: [01:06:32] Um, going with unlucky or, um, so
AE: [01:06:35] the RMS Olympic is the third sister ship of the Titanic.
Okay. And stay
CA: [01:06:40] off sister ships of a Titanic.
Okay.
AE: [01:06:42] This one didn't sink, but it was involved in an accident when I collided with a
British warship. And while it didn't sink, um, she was on it. And like I said, she's either very lucky
or very unlucky. Um,
CA: [01:06:58] I don't think she [01:07:00] really seems to be understanding. Yeah.
AE: [01:07:02] She's, she's not, um, listening to the universe.
I mean, by how else do you get places like this? It's like getting on an airplane. What's your
other, she cant [ stay home] she's
CA: [01:07:18] she's got me plot twist. She's the reason they all sank or except for the one,
except for the one that didn't sink. Yeah. But the first two. I mean, she was there. They both say
that she's the common denominator,
AE: [01:07:33] right.
It's her fault. Um, so just following up, uh, just kind of tying it all together. Um, the reason that
these, all these ships, all sink is because of violet Jessup. And that is my story of the Titanic
CA: [01:07:48] and violet Jessop and violet
AE: [01:07:50] just hop. Uh, how did these intersect,
CA: [01:07:54] I feel like I jumped the gun with intersection this time and created a fun little
[01:08:00] metaphor.
Um, I love the metaphor. We also have, you know, we also have generational trauma. Um,
AE: [01:08:10] absolutely like can you imagine being one of the people who lived
CA: [01:08:15] and then has children and grandchildren's like, whatever you do do not get on a
boat except for violet Jessop, who was like, let me get on every boat. Right.
AE: [01:08:25] I invented boats.
I invented post-its she's a boss ass bitch for sure.
CA: [01:08:31] Five. Sure. Yeah. Uh, so it was Molly Brown, like hats off to Molly
AE: [01:08:36] Brown. Yeah. She reminds me of the woman that started the, uh, red cross,
which I don't remember her name off the top of my head. I don't either completely unqualified,
but also like I'll help
CA: [01:08:48] or, I mean, even if we're going to continue drawing comparisons between our
two stories, Dr.
Nadine Burke Harris, who. Just does whatever she [01:09:00] can to help the community that
she's in. Yeah. Um, I think that, that might be point may not be the best, but when we're looking
at people who in times of crisis in times of crisis function well and are thinking creatively about
solutions, they both win gold star.
Yeah. Um, yeah. So I feel like what intersections do you see? I think sometimes I drive the
intersection. No,
AE: [01:09:28] prefer that. I agree with you about the trauma. I think this is literally one of the
most traumatic experiences that somebody can imagine about the world around you, uh, falling
apart and ultimate survival.
It's the fight or flight thing. Um, what's interesting about this is that I think people might argue
that trauma in, um, circ certain circumstances is. You can flee from it. You can get away from it.
Yeah. [01:10:00] So if you are in an, uh, in a relationship, people are always like, why don't you
just leave? Which of course we know is not the right circumstance, uh, or not the right, you
know, thing to
CA: [01:10:09] say, honestly.
Yeah. And it's not always possible. No, it's a multitude of reasons,
AE: [01:10:14] especially with children also, and financial reasons. There's so many
CA: [01:10:18] reasons and psychological stuff that's going on, right?
AE: [01:10:22] This is the physical version of that, where you are physically unable to leave, um,
because there's only 16 lifeboats.
And do you fit into that category? So, um, I did read a statistic that said, if you were in first class,
you were 44% more likely to
CA: [01:10:39] survive. And I feel like the same is true in our society. Like if you are in first class
and the upper class, you're more likely to go through life and escape or less scathed than, you
know, people living in communities that don't have access to mental health or [01:11:00]
healthcare or food or
AE: [01:11:02] so interesting because your study reflected the majority of
CA: [01:11:07] middle-class middle class.
Yeah.
AE: [01:11:10] So that's why I am under the impression speculating wildly that the majority of
those would be from divorce. Um, obviously for a do-now
CA: [01:11:23] for sure. For like the two thirds who said at least one, at least one. Yeah. Yeah.
And then whatever percent, I think it was like 87% said two or more, which would leave us with
13% who said yes, To at least one or, and to only one.
Yeah.
AE: [01:11:44] But you know, we, we don't know, we don't know for sure, but obviously we know
that classes a factor in a lot of things. So
CA: [01:11:51] I think that one of the things that it's really interesting about this is, and maybe
even why the Titanic is such a great metaphor [01:12:00] for ACEs in trauma and epigenetics is
I had, I had no idea about the carriage fire and also that there may have been an issue with the
metal buckling and that could have contributed to why, um, it's a theory that a ship failed, but
the, so people could look at this from the outside and say, Oh, just stay away from icebergs.
And that's great. But the ship could have burned from the inside or it could have buckled
regardless, or
AE: [01:12:27] the challenger. Yeah. It reminds me about being a. Unprepared and more
concerned about what other people are thinking about status and about going ahead and
launching it. Yeah. Because so much money was invested in it.
And, uh, that class factor, you know, about it, that being so important to them.
CA: [01:12:49] No, I completely agree. Um, And in some cases, maybe they were both
preventable. Um, but we were so concerned with external factors [01:13:00] that we weren't
concerned with what was going on internally, which is basically, I think what happens to kids
and families is we're more concerned with, well, you know, why didn't you eat better?
Because now you have heart disease when really. Eating better is just one aspect of the things
that may have gone wrong. They may have also experienced other forms of trauma. That
AE: [01:13:21] is so crazy to me even still. Yeah. So, yeah. All right. I think that is it for this
week. Great job. My friend hit you up to
CA: [01:13:30] you too.
I loved learning about the Titanic. I can feel so good about, about all the people that died. I was
going to say about having never actually watched the entire movie. It's a good
AE: [01:13:40] one. You should watch it.
CA: [01:13:41] Uh, or at least listen to the soundtrack.
AE: [01:13:43] Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. If you support us
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