Episode 13: ECT and Last Words- Transcript

ECT

CA: [00:00:00] hi, Teamsters I'm Carey Ann 

AE: [00:00:16] and I'm Allison. And this is podcast about an audience 

CA: [00:00:19] where two friends pick two topics and find intersections 

AE: [00:00:22] or not. How are you Carey Ann? I am wonderful. I feel like I always start out it's cause I say the not. So then I feel like it's my turn to talk. 

CA: [00:00:36] Well, we went through a phase where like it would be or not, and then we would both giggle or, you know, I'm over it now, like trying to figure out how do we transition smoothly into whatever we're going to 

AE: [00:00:49] talk about for the day.

I also need to stop interrupting you. I disagree. I solomnly swear that I will try. 

CA: [00:01:00] Try being the operative word things. I also finish your sentences a lot. 

AE: [00:01:06] That's because I don't know what I'm saying 

CA: [00:01:08] or it's because my brain just fills in the end of your sentence. And it's like, this is clearly what you meant to say here, except that it's not always, or even usually

AE: [00:01:16] actually you're right.

I always like start saying something and when I, when I, you know, 

CA: [00:01:21] and then you start to ramble and then I take over 

AE: [00:01:25] that's exactly right. And then I started singing anyway. Yeah. What's going on with you? 

CA: [00:01:31] Not that much. We are recording on a Tuesday night, which is so weird. 

AE: [00:01:35] Super weird, happy Tuesday, 

CA: [00:01:38] Tuesday friends this past weekend.

So we're recording the Tuesday after mother's day. And I got to see my mom over the weekend, but she surprised me with a trip to Greensboro today and took me out to lunch and we just had the best where'd you guys 

AE: [00:01:52] go green Valley grill. So 

CA: [00:01:56] yeah, you did, but it was really wonderful. We talked about books and.

All sorts of good things. Awesome. Yeah. So it was the first time hanging out one-on-one with her in a long time. 

AE: [00:02:09] That's really important quality time. Yeah. How about you? So I am really good. We have gotten so many good reviews on Apple podcasts that have really been so lovely. And if you don't mind, I'd actually like to read a couple.

CA: [00:02:25] I would love that they make me feel so good. 

AE: [00:02:28] I love getting them. It really, first of all, like personally means a lot that people are taking the time to review them, but also that people like our content. Um, and we are sending stickers to the really, really good 

CA: [00:02:44] that's exactly what I was about to say as I would like pointing at you from across the room is we don't, I don't think we know who all of these reviews are from.

So if some of these are you please reach out to us so that we can send you stickers or, you know, Our 

AE: [00:03:00] autographs. 

CA: [00:03:01] Oh no. And by autographs. I mean a thank you card that Allie handwrites. 

AE: [00:03:07] Okay. So this one says 10 out of five stars. Can I just say, wow. The things I have learned, exploring topics from the Titanic to generational behavioral biology, these women cover it all the best part is they make you feel like you are cozy on the couch right next to them sipping some sham pain, which we are doing in lives.

No.

CA: [00:03:29] And other than couch, you got it. All right. We are sitting on the 

AE: [00:03:33] floor of the bedroom between the bed. Be sure to stimulate your brain and join in every Thursday to learn something new. I learned something new every Thursday. You literally teach me something every single week. You teach me something too.

Yeah. I don't know shit about shit. 

CA: [00:03:49] I love this dynamic that we have. 

AE: [00:03:52] So that was one I'll probably share. One maybe next week when we record too, but I just wanted to say thank you to everybody who's doing that. That helps us out a ton, especially as we're growing. I think initially when we started doing the podcast, we weren't quite sure like how much traction we would get and we have just been overwhelmed by.

All of the Teamsters and all the listeners who have 

CA: [00:04:16] supported us. I can't tell you how many recent conversations I've had with like, OG listeners, like our friends, because that's where we start. Right. Is you share it with your friends. We started, okay, let us be clear. Started with no audience. Then we shared it with friends and some of those friends, I'm now having conversations about like, we have an audience and it's so weird and I have felt nothing but so much support.

AE: [00:04:42] Ab-so-lutely shout out 

CA: [00:04:45] to everybody, everybody. 

AE: [00:04:48] So, so speaking of learning, what are you teaching me today? What is your psychology topic? 

CA: [00:04:55] I'm actually hoping you're going to start off by teaching me a little something. 

AE: [00:04:59] Oh, okay. I can try. 

CA: [00:05:02] So my I'm going to start us off with a quote and the quote is "help me.

Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope." So I actually don't know shit about star Wars, which is super embarrassing to say, and I can't believe I'm admitting that on a podcast. It's okay. I do know that Carrie Fisher, who is the leading lady of my topic today for at least the first few paragraphs, um, played princess Leia.

Yes, she did. So we're going to cue the star Wars intro, and that's going to be that. That's all I got for you. Fun facto-roney. We're learning about Carrie Fisher. So she died. Oh, gosh. When was it? Two years ago, last year,

AE: [00:05:41] not long ago recently before the last one came out, was it? Oh, cause they CGI-ed her in that's right.

Which is crazy. You can do that. 

CA: [00:05:53] Oh, I heard this weird statistic that like in the next 10 years, we're not going to be able to distinguish fake video from real video. And I just, 

AE: [00:06:02] first of all, don't love it. Second of all, how see, I don't think that that could be true because I look back on all these fucking movies and at the time you were like, Oh my God.

And then now you're like, dude, I can see string dangling 

CA: [00:06:16] from yeah, yeah. But still how crazy to think about that. Right. So anyways, Carrie Fisher died a couple of years ago and was cremated. Apparently I have not seen it myself, but apparently her ashes are buried in an urn that was designed to look like a prozac pill.

Huh? Have you heard that? No, she was fucking depressed. Actually. She was bipolar, but okay. Part of bipolar is manic and depression. 

AE: [00:06:46] Yeah. Wow. What a, what a choice. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if they, you know, who, who somebody would have had to design 

CA: [00:06:54] that for her, hopefully you good for, um, someone who may also take Prozac.

Yeah. As I'm thinking about this, I was just like imagining all of the people in Hollywood who experienced mental health issues. Who either have spoken up about their mental health issues or who, you know, died by suicide. And we don't learn about that until later. Um, Demi Lovato is a huge proponent of talking about 

AE: [00:07:19] mental health.

Demi Lovato. If you were listening, my phone number is seven zero four 

CA: [00:07:25] and I'm three, three, six, Carrie Fisher was iconic. Not only for being a phenomenal actress in the movies that neither of us have seen. No. 

AE: [00:07:34] I mean, you've seen a couple of them, you know, Ray, my partner Ray is like obsessed. Our dog is named Obie, so right.

CA: [00:07:41] So he's seen them. 

AE: [00:07:44] Um, I've I mean, to be fair, our first movie date was to see one of them. I'm so sorry. I couldn't tell you which one, but we went 

CA: [00:07:53] thats so telling it was about three years ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. So w whichever one was coming out about that time, I think it was 

AE: [00:08:00] Solo about Hans. 

CA: [00:08:03] You could literally say any name and I would just be like, Oh yeah, that makes sense.

AE: [00:08:08] I just started doing that. It's just like planting fake information, hashtag faking. 

CA: [00:08:16] We're trying to be credible here, Allie. Okay. But please do that occasionally. Okay. So she was also known for speaking openly with wit and courage about her struggle with mental illness. Um, I have quotes from Carrie Fisher scattered throughout my whole topic today.

Perfect. So you're going to hear a lot of them. Good. Uh, but here's your first one. One of the things that baffles me is how there can be so much lingering stigma with regards to mental illness, specifically bipolar disorder. In my opinion, living with manic depression takes a tremendous amount of balls.

AE: [00:08:50] Fuck yes, Carrie Fisher. 

CA: [00:08:52] I hate that. I did not realize how bad ass she was until I started doing this research. Um, but the reason we're talking about Carrie Fisher is she wrote several books, um, her most recent one. And the one that is relevant to today's topic is called Shock-a-holic, which discusses her voluntary use of.

Of electro comvulsive therapy, shock therapy. Her, she did it on purpose. Voluntary use. 

AE: [00:09:23] Wow. 

CA: [00:09:24] Oh, I never knew that ongoing continuous voluntary use of ECT 

AE: [00:09:28] an outdated practice. 

CA: [00:09:31] We're gonna get into it 

AE: [00:09:34] so excited. 

CA: [00:09:35] I'm scared. 

AE: [00:09:37] I knew somebody. I see, I know somebody this 

CA: [00:09:41] your turn, 

AE: [00:09:42] who do you know? I know somebody who's grandmother got electric electric shock therapy.

Electrotherapy yes. 

CA: [00:09:50] I know someone whose mom is a nurse who still gets electric shock therapy. Thanks. Yeah. Yay. I think yours might Trump. Mine. No, he's the one who's actually received it. I don't think I know anyone who electric shock therapy was first conducted, conducted in the 1930s by two Italian psychiatrist. Hugo Serleti and Louigi Benni. Hmm. My Italian is fantastic. 

AE: [00:10:18] It does say oui, we, but that is not right. 

CA: [00:10:23] However, for compulsive interventions have been used to treat mental disorders since the 16th century, people had already basically discovered that inducing seizures, which is kind of the purpose of electric shock therapy is you're inducing a seizure.

We're going to talk more about that in just a second. Hold your question. Okay. Could relieve the symptoms of mental illness before electric shock therapy. This was primarily done with chemicals or like medications. However, apparently the meds were pretty traumatic. Like as soon as you took them, you started feeling pretty violently ill before the seizure.

Seizure was actually induced. So psychiatrists were trying to come up with a way to induce seizures that were less frightening and almost immediately they were like, let shock people. That's less frightening the medication. Sure. Let's 

AE: [00:11:10] tie you down. 

CA: [00:11:11] This took off almost immediately and was shortly by like the 1940s.

This was the end of the 1930s. So within two to five years was used all over the world. Wow. Electric shock therapy became popular in the 1940s around the time that psychiatric hospitals began became overrun with patients and it began to replace lobotomies, which we are saving for later episode. Um, fully fascinating.

Oh, 

AE: [00:11:38] sucker punch that's Oh 

CA: [00:11:40] yeah. Oh, that would be a fun cult movie. 

AE: [00:11:43] Is that a cult movie? Got it on DVD. So it's got to be, 

CA: [00:11:48] cause you only own 

AE: [00:11:49] cult movies. I only own like obscure. Yeah. 

CA: [00:11:54] Would reduce a patient to a quote, manageable submissive state and the benefit of electric shock therapy or ECT is that it helped improve the mood.

So it didn't like make you, it didn't put you into a vegetative state by the 1970s and eighties, pharmaceuticals began to be used for severe mental disorders. So ECT, which had been a first line resort suddenly became a last. Hmm, last pick, uh, treatment. All right. You've got so many questions. I saw you get so excited a second ago and I wanted to get through the history so I could actually tell you about ECT.

So 

AE: [00:12:32] I never thought about it inducing seizures. Like, Hey, visually, like that's obviously what's happening, but I never, I never connected those two and in my mind, so I don't know if you touched on this in your research, but like, how does it all like work? Like, 

CA: [00:12:49] so we're going to get there and really the answer is that no one actually knows.

So I kind of like you, I thought the seizure was a by-product or a side effect. I assumed it had something to do with like, literally we rewiring the brain connecting synopsis and, you know, making things function differently, but it kind of feels like shooting into the dark. Like you don't actually know.

Um, but apparently the seizures, the goal, not the consequence. Um, however, it's not a full like grand mall seizure, the way that you see in movies. Right. Okay. It's not like muscles are, are don't typically contract the way that you expect them to it's. All in your 

AE: [00:13:32] brain. And the purpose of it is to essentially like reset yourself, 

CA: [00:13:38] theoretically.

Okay. Theoretically. So we'll get into that a little bit more too. Wow. 

AE: [00:13:44] I know this is a lot for a Tuesday. 

CA: [00:13:47] We have champagne. Yeah. I should have asked you to prepare your body before we got into this too far. So many critics have portrayed ECT as a form of medical abuse and depictions and film and television are usually really scary yet many psychiatrists and more importantly, patients consider it to be a safe and effective treatment for severe depression and bipolar disorder.

Few medical treatments have such desperate images. So this one, I think because of like one flew over the Cuckoo's nest and other, like really common portrayals, scared people, uh, which feels valid to me because when you think about volts going through your brain, we're going to talk about that in a second too.

Like, it sounds terrifying, but a lot of the patients actually seem to prefer it over some other treatments. Huh?

AE: [00:14:39] So apparently your Carrie Fisher was a big 

CA: [00:14:43] buddy. Carrie. Yeah. ECT is a treatment where doctors induce a generalized seizure with a meaning without muscular convulsions to manage mental disorders.

Typically 70 to 120 volts are put into your brain for about one second to six seconds. And they're false. They're not, it used to be like a continuum streams, but now it's pulsed. Um, so what does, okay. 

AE: [00:15:10] Sorry. Wow. Okay. So they're still doing this shit today. Yes. 

CA: [00:15:14] Who is doing this? Oh, I did that research too.

Okay. Okay. It's at the bottom though. So you're going to have to wait for a few more pages, but what does 120 volts feel like? I don't know.

AE: [00:15:26] Do you want to know? Yeah. No. Not really. So, um, tell me anyway. 

CA: [00:15:32] I am, so it feels kind of like they equate it to a taser, but really it's if you were to hit your funny bone, about as hard as you possibly could.

Okay. That's what it feels like, huh? Like numbing except all over your body. Right. Numbing and tingling. Okay. Okay. Mm. Okay. Yep. I think I'm going to say that a lot. Yes, you will. Okay. I mean, I feel like I caught you off guard a little bit with this topic. 

AE: [00:16:00] I thought we were going to talk about birth order again, or some of the nice and fluffy 

CA: [00:16:05] happy chemicals in your brain, which I'm going to do eventually, but false 

AE: [00:16:10] we're talking about fucking shock therapy on a Tuesday.

CA: [00:16:14] I almost did lobotomys. You're welcome. Okay. It's important to know that electric shock therapy is only administered with informed consent and treatment resistant, prolonged or severe conditions. Where quote, there's a need for rapid definitive response because of the severity of a psychiatric or medical condition.

Okay. So it's only administered at this moment in time, theoretically to patients who are able to give their consent. Who, all of their treatments do not work and their life is at an eminent risk. So severe depression, severe schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder, nothing else is working. 

AE: [00:16:59] So am I accurate in then thinking that it's kind of a toss up, whether it's going to work since it's considered a last resort,

CA: [00:17:10] I'm going to give you some data on that too.

Oh my 

AE: [00:17:12] God. Well, I'll just shut up and then you just tell me your story. 

CA: [00:17:16] Well, you're not going to like this next part. Okay. Okay. It has also been used to treat autism and adults and those with intellectual disabilities who could not give consent? No, not a fan. No. Uh, stop trying to fucking cure disabled people when our society is the problem and not them.

Like I can't, the medical field is so fucked. The mental health field can also be super fucked. 

AE: [00:17:41] Yup. We're all doomed. 

CA: [00:17:42] Yeah. Anyways, it was considered a safe and effective intervention approved by the FDA. Reapproved by the FDA in 2018 to treat, uh, catatonia. I think I'm pronouncing like catatonic state.

Okay. Um, major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. We need a little Carrie Fisher. I ready for another Carrie Fisher quote. Okay. At times being bipolar can be an all-consuming challenge requiring a lot of stamina and even more courage. So if you're going to live with this illness and function at all, it's something to be proud of.

Not ashamed of, they should issue metals along with a steady stream of medication. God, I love Carrie Fisher. 

AE: [00:18:23] You know, everybody has this assumption about people who are famous or like. You know, public figures that they have it all together because it's literally part of their job to essentially distract people from their own realities.

Yeah. So I think they kind of seem untouchable from a lot of things in general, but mental health, depression, anxiety. Um, you know, 

CA: [00:18:52] well, and I think that a lot of these mental health issues are on the rise too. And not just because shit sucks, but also because we have more of an awareness now, like there's now a name for the blues.

It's not just, you're sad all the time. Like major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety, like these bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, um, these are things that exist and are real and there's data to back them up. Um, I mean, schizophrenia has been a common diag, well, I'm not going to say common, but it has been a diagnosis for a long time, but I feel like more and more people are understanding what depression actually means.

And like maybe our parent's generation, our grandparents' generation who are just like, get over it, get over it, suck it up. That's not possible. 

AE: [00:19:41] Well, and, and, you know, the diagnosis goes back to the DSM changing, right? 

CA: [00:19:47] Well, yes. So the DSM-V, Oh, we've already covered that. I'm so glad we got that out of the way, but the DSM-V recently came out and has been widely used since, uh, 2014, I think, uh, 15, maybe it was about the time I went to grad school.

So it had all these updates, um, and depression, anxiety, and whatnot. I've been in there for a long time, but I think the criteria has just become increasingly more clear as we've gotten more accurate research. 

AE: [00:20:18] Yeah. And that's what healthcare professionals are looking to for diagnosis. Right. Uh, parameters.

So, yeah. Makes sense to me. 

CA: [00:20:29] Amen. So how does ECT work? I don't know. Do you want to know, I'm going to tell you anyways. 

AE: [00:20:36] It's okay. Dolly, mommy's here. 

CA: [00:20:39] There are several different ways that ECT functions. Okay. There's unilateral ECT, which is where they put both electrodes on the same side of your head. Okay.

Um, and it's, I F from what I understand, theoretically, to induce a seizure on like in one hemisphere, more so than the 

AE: [00:20:59] other, that makes sense. Do you know? Cause you know, left brain, right brain. That totally makes sense. Is it intended for the same side or the opposite side? What do you mean. Like if I put my two shocks on my right side, is that intended to affect my right or my 

CA: [00:21:15] left?

I already had eight pages of notes. So I did not. You have eight pages of notes? Well close. Oh my God. With sources, 

AE: [00:21:24] let me pour some more wine. 

CA: [00:21:26] So unilateral act, right? Both electrodes, same side of the, of the head, which stimulates one hemisphere over the other, and maybe first use to minimize side effects such as memory loss.

So that's one benefit of doing the one side. Okay. Is it may not impact like certain structures of the brain that exists somewhere in the middle, like the amygdala, the hypothalamus, so on and so forth don't exist within the hemisphere. So if you're only shocking, one half of the brain, you may leave those pieces more.

The 

AE: [00:21:59] hippocampus sure. Is that, that's the one part absolutely. That you mentioned that I also what's, 

CA: [00:22:08] uh, ah, 

AE: [00:22:09] dammit. That's memory. That's your memory part. Okay. 

CA: [00:22:12] That's what I meant then your memory bits. Yeah. I'm trying to remember that water boy, quote about why crocodiles are always in such a bad mood it's because of their brain.

AE: [00:22:24] Huh? Do you remember that? Okay. I don't think I was allowed to watch it. 

CA: [00:22:28] Oh, we watched them repeat. Thanks to 

AE: [00:22:31] little brother sheltered shelter life. 

CA: [00:22:34] Uh, he said it was because they ain't got, they got all them teeth and no toothbrush. Oh, anyways. Okay. Um, bilateral ECT is the electrodes are placed on opposite sides of the head, usually on the temples, but sometimes over each eye.

Oh, really? Yep. And patients most often will do bilateral because it's more effective at lower doses. So. That's the one 

AE: [00:23:00] I'm I'm used to seeing. 

CA: [00:23:02] I think it's more commonly portrayed. ECT is given under anesthesia and the patient is given a mush muscle relaxant first. Okay. So they're pretty like loosey goosey by the time they pump 120 volts into your brain, 

AE: [00:23:20] which makes sense.

Which makes sense to me. Yeah. I'm wondering when these regulations came about because, you know, sometimes all of these things, all the consent and whatnot was not mandatory, unfortunately. 

CA: [00:23:34] Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of consent in the 1950s electric shock therapy was used as a treatment for homosexuality. No, I don't think I prepared you adequately for that one.

I make, it was an L it was considered an illness that's based in the DSM and just generally speaking. And I think it's one of the many reasons that we don't like to look at behavior. Like we don't want to. Medicalized behaviors like who you love is not a reason to have 120 volts pump pump 

AE: [00:24:10] to your body.

CA: [00:24:11] Clearly, that was not going to be voluntary. That was going to be people in institutions 

AE: [00:24:15] who had been committed by fucking family members. Do yourselves a favor, just love yourself and your family and everyone. Yep. Amen. Amen. Also that was the situation in, um, American horror story asylum. 

CA: [00:24:34] I know I need to go back and rewatch it.

Uh, love 

AE: [00:24:38] Sarah Paulson. So can we talk about how her girlfriend was from, but I'm a cheerleader. I know we didn't talk about that at all. We didn't, we forgot where we're talking about it now, given all kinds of details about 

CA: [00:24:53] how many different episodes have we referenced in this one episode? Geez. 

AE: [00:24:56] Um, so in the asylum season, right?

Who's the main girl. Sarah Paulson, Sarah Paulson, her, her, her girlfriend, her partners in that season is, uh, Clea Deval. Yes. From, but I'm a cheerleader. 

CA: [00:25:14] You have a gift truly and deeply a gift. Um, I thought you were going to say that her Sarah Paulson, like the actress's wife who's like in her eighties was in, but I'm a cheerleader.

I was 

AE: [00:25:25] like, I don't think so. But she was in the L word. She wasn't the link up there 

CA: [00:25:32] and we're back to the chart. 

AE: [00:25:33] She's she? That's when Bette says, uh, she was like, I was a lesbian in 1974 and then she was like, Ms. Peabody, that's what we call a has-be-ian 

CA: [00:25:43] so many great references makes me want to go back and watch for them and cheerleader.

So multiple. Okay. And the us, we are able to give people electric shock therapy or electroconvulsive therapy also known as shock therapy, like up to three times a week. And most of the rest of the world, it's only twice a week from factor any until the patient is no longer suffering symptoms. So this could go on for about 12 weeks, I think is pretty average.

AE: [00:26:12] Wow. 

CA: [00:26:13] Studies have shown that for unipolar and bipolar depression. So either major depressive disorder or bipolar depression, that there was a remission rate of about 51% for people with major depression and 53%, for those with bipolar depression in 2012. So about half of the people who receive treat little over half who received treatment of ECT had remission when they were done with treatment.

However about 50% of those. Relapsed by 12 months after having successful treatment with the act, even when they're taking antidepressants and other medications, 

AE: [00:26:54] realistically, we're looking at a 25% long-term and that's 

CA: [00:26:58] success. Yeah. And that's not measured past 12 months. 

AE: [00:27:02] Well, you got to measure past 12 months.

Just got to, that is why. I think we need to be really, really supporting and financing science so that we can know things. That's my statement, 

CA: [00:27:18] science so that we can know things. I love it. 

AE: [00:27:21] Thanks. Um, 

I'm 

CA: [00:27:22] here first. I think that if there was more funding and mental health, um, that we would see a reduction and people incarcerated, a reduction in people are receiving, you know, long-term mental health services.

If we could figure out how to provide treatment sooner, so many things, but no one wants to talk about that because we have a for-profit prison system and our healthcare systems. It's a solid . 

AE: [00:27:49] That's why we have a podcast to talk 

CA: [00:27:52] about all this shit that we care about. Right. Okay. So side effects, um, brief general anesthesia, of course you're under anesthesia while you're receiving treatment, but there's also like some transient memory loss, confusion, and muscle soreness.

So really. The side effects. There's some long-term side effects that impact memory, um, or that show that memory can be impacted, but they're actually pretty mild side effects. So here's a question that you asked earlier. What does it actually do?  

AE: [00:28:27] yes, 

CA: [00:28:27] please. Yeah. We don't know. There have been multiple decades of research, um, about the like mechanism of action is what they call it.

Like what about ECT makes it effective? And ultimately it remains elusive. A recent hypothesis suggests that the seizures cause a change in sleep architecture that might have some therapeutic results. There are some other theories about, you know, just reconnecting synopses. Ultimately we just don't fucking know.

We just don't know. It works for about half the people for anywhere from a month to 12 months is what we got. 

AE: [00:29:06] So at this point, though, if it's, if it's that they're electing to do it, at least maybe that there's a chance of relief in some type of way. So, I mean, besides 

CA: [00:29:16] anybody, yeah. Me either and the side effects are minimal.

I 

AE: [00:29:19] mean, I think, I think having the, the stigma and the media perception of ECT has tainted my brain 

CA: [00:29:28] abso-fucking-luetly. 

AE: [00:29:29] So I'm much more open to it now. Yeah. Although it's a, it's a lot, like a lot of medical procedures they're like it could work or it could not work. It really just depends on you and your body.

Yeah. 

CA: [00:29:42] And your brain and your needs as of 2001, which was the most recent data I could find. It was estimated that about 1 million people around the world receive electric shock therapy. Annual. 

AE: [00:29:55] Do we know anything about the regulations outside of the U S a little bit? 

CA: [00:30:00] Um, it's still really popular in Europe.

Of course. Um, 

AE: [00:30:04] Italy, perhaps 

CA: [00:30:05] Italy, perhaps the UK is I saw a lot of data about the UK. I didn't dig too deep into it because I really wanted to make sure that we're focusing on the American system because the healthcare piece of this comes into play in a minute.

AE: [00:30:18] Okay. Let me guess. None of it's covered under insurance, 

CA: [00:30:22] actually.

It is. And that's part of the issue. Okay. So we'll talk about that in a second, but a lot of Eastern countries. Don't buy into ECT. Um, they also have their own understandings of medical issues. I read a book recently called the spirit catches you and you fall down, which is about a hmong family that moves from Laos to California and their daughter has epilepsy.

And, um, they truly believe that her spirit is like leaving her body and coming back to her body when she has a seizure. So they equate it with like almost being godlike. Like she's a higher, she's more than human. She's a spiritual being. So they just see things like this differently and great book. We'll have to cover it at some point totally besides the point.

But yeah, people view act differently around the world. It's still really popular in Europe and here it's estimated that about a hundred thousand Americans receive act each year. And the last few decades, the typical ECT patient went from being a low-income male under the age of 40 to a middle income woman over the age of 65, which is interesting.

It's a strange transition. About 70% of ECT patients are women. This could also be because they're more likely to be diagnosed with depression or hysteria. 

AE: [00:31:52] I feel 

CA: [00:31:52] like we've referenced literally every episode we've made so far in this episode, whatever 

AE: [00:31:57] bingo, Yahtzee, 

CA: [00:31:59] older and more affluent patients are more likely to receive ECT.

This could be because of the push of insurance companies to provide fast quote, medical treatment rather than talk therapy. So therapy is often an accessible to people because many insurance companies don't cover it or only cover a certain amount, or you have to reach this threshold of what you've paid into the system.

Before, you know, you're able to have a lower 

AE: [00:32:27] rate for therapy. 

CA: [00:32:29] You're, they're more likely to pay for electric shock there or electroconvulsive therapy, because it's like a quick fix. 

AE: [00:32:37] That's so interesting. Like what I know about the insurance industry. I would think it would be the opposite because a lot of it is about coding.

How are things coded? So things that are coded as preventative are often covered under policies. So if you go get a colonoscopy and you feel fine, nothing is wrong. And they find something in your colonoscopy that is still considered preventative, right? When, you know, if you're having issues and then you get a colonoscopy, then it's not preventative anymore.

So I would think it would be the opposite. 

CA: [00:33:12] That's a great point, except that in order to be receiving therapy, at least in Maryland. And I don't know about North Carolina, I assume it's, you know, Pretty standard. You have to have something like, they have to have a reason to bill you for therapy. You can't just go because your friend told you to go.

So at some point, like there's a certain number of sessions that you might be able to go to therapy before. They're like, okay, this person has depression or anxiety and that's for billing purposes. 

AE: [00:33:43] See, that's interesting. And I don't, I'm not, I don't think that you're wrong about that. My experience has been, and it depends.

And it has got to depend on what policy you have, because you know, a lot of times they cover X number of policy or X number of visits under, you know, it could be like a specialty copay. It could be your regular doctor's visit copay. It's all going to be varying on. While you're spending. Yeah. But 

CA: [00:34:09] for a therapist too, like, especially therapists working with Medicaid, when they submit for billing, whatever that looks like, they have to have something on paper saying that this person needs therapy.

Otherwise they won't 

AE: [00:34:24] cover it at all. Yeah. My experience is not in the public. 

CA: [00:34:28] Yeah. Yeah. But that's one of the ways that our system is just so messed up 

AE: [00:34:34] and I have had to explain how. The U S um, insurance system works to somebody who has just moved to the U S um, and it's just a bunch of like, wait, that doesn't make any sense.

And you're like, no, I know, but it's how we do it. 

CA: [00:34:54] Yeah. We're aware. It makes no sense. 

AE: [00:34:57] They're like, so it's a copay 

CA: [00:35:00] and then you get the bill 

AE: [00:35:02] and then you have a deductible, but I'm paying for insurance. So what the fuck am I paying? Great 

CA: [00:35:07] question. We don't actually know question nothing really. I'm still working on some medical bills myself from a year and a half ago.

So this is also maybe the most controversial psychiatric treatment, especially when you think about effectiveness versus side effects. It seems to have some short-term effects, but is often seen as a quick and easy solution instead of long-term psychotherapy or hospitalization. Some researchers suggest that no study proves that ECT is effective for more than four weeks, four weeks fuck.

Yeah. Well, but honestly, like if you are in such a low place yeah. That ECT is your option and it gives you four weeks reprieve from whatever is going on in your brain. Like four weeks might be worth it. 

AE: [00:36:04] Yeah. I wonder how long it takes. Is it, that's assuming that you're doing like the average, like 12 weeks or whatever, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. 

CA: [00:36:12] All right. So we are going to run up with a final to Carrie Fisher quotes. Okay. Because we need to like 

AE: [00:36:21] build me up buttercup. 

CA: [00:36:23] Well, and I think that you, one of the things that I enjoyed most about doing this topic was. That it really changed my perception of ECT. Um, I feel like I learned so much just doing the research and I already knew that like, it was still a common practice and that it wasn't actually as harmful as a lot of the media portrays it to be right with consent, right.

With consent. And I think that just talking to you has made me feel even better about it, so, Oh, 

AE: [00:36:50] well, you're so 

CA: [00:36:51] welcome. I love having Carrie says. I've had to rise to occasions, not just on the stage in order to survive. So that bruising is my blessing and those liabilities are my strength now, hilariously after all the drug addiction and celebration of marriage and mental illness and divorce.

And shock treatment and heartbreak and motherhood and childhood and neighborhood and hood in general, I've turned out to be at close to 70, a kind of happy person go figure, which I love for her 

AE: [00:37:27] that I was carrying. I feel close to her. 

CA: [00:37:30] I do too. I'm so connected to someone who is buried in a Prozac pill.

AE: [00:37:34] Yeah. Yeah. That's fucking wild. What an interesting choice that she made that would have had to have been a pre death choice. Yes. Um, it, maybe she visited somebody afterwards. Don't laugh at me. That's fair. 

CA: [00:37:49] Um, I also am going to go home and journal tonight and be like, when I die, what do I want? My earns all look like 

AE: [00:37:56] for both.

CA: [00:37:59] I am thinking like a matruska doll, like the nesting dolls just, 

AE: [00:38:03] Hmm. Oh, spoiler alert. Okay. So the, so Hanson's on the mass singer right now and they're in the Russian stalking dolls. Oh, Yeah. So they 

CA: [00:38:15] made this reveal or did you just figure it out because you're expert because you're a Hanson groupie. 

AE: [00:38:21] I am.

Okay. So I heard that they possibly might. I know that they're like more conservative, which like goes against everything in my being. Sure. Um, but I choose to ignore it. We all do. Um, my sister called me and she was like, so her sister-in-law thinks that Hanson is on the masked singer. Like she sent me like the YouTube video.

I heard one single note and I was like, that's fucking them. She's right. 10 points for Gryffendor. It is them. Bless. I love it. I've had more dreams about meeting Hanson than I've had about anything else in my entire life 

CA: [00:39:02] that tells me so much about you and your brain and how it functions.

AE: [00:39:08] I don't know why I feel so 

CA: [00:39:10] good to them to have you seen Hansen in concert?

AE: [00:39:13] I think four, but all after the age of 18, I think it was 18. I saw them first on their, um, great divide tour so that would've had to have been 2010 maybe, but fun fact. I okay. So after there. Their next album was called shouted out. I went at midnight to go get it. So I'm driving with my two friends from college in a suburban, um, our neighborhood, the same one that Shamoleen lives in, but it's not that one.

Okay. So we're driving to I'm in the Avalon. I used to drive a 2003 Toyota Avalon. She was a joke. 

CA: [00:40:08] She had a cowboy sticker on there, a gay cowboy gay cowboy. I figured that was implied. I'm sorry. No. 

AE: [00:40:15] So anyway, we're driving in the neighborhood and there's this little deer and this little doe-eyed dear. Okay, so email dire, huh?

CA: [00:40:25] I'm sorry. I was singing doe a deer, a female deer. 

AE: [00:40:27] There's a deer. We drive by the deer. There's a, there's a truck that's parked there. And because we're in fucking Charlotte, North Carolina, we drive by and they shoot the fucking year. No. So I did a U-turn and I chased them in my car to get their license plate number.

And they had a gun. I was literally, I was, I mean, like I was, I felt like a baby at the time. 

CA: [00:40:51] I have never been more proud to call you my best friend.

AE: [00:40:53] Thank you. 

CA: [00:40:54] That's the most bad-ass story I've ever heard. It's also the most, 

AE: [00:40:59] I mean, when you're going to Walmart and midnight, get your hands and CD and you see 

CA: [00:41:04] someone shoot 

AE: [00:41:05] Bambi's.

It was really sad. I know. Oh God, which does not transition well into my, my S uh, my part, Oh, I did you topic for this week while we're here scared to say, we're going to, ah, how can we bring this up? So my topic, I'm going to transition with a quote because I think we need a palate cleanser. Agreed. Okay. So you have to tell me what movie this is from my father's final words....

Princess Bride.

love her as I love her and there will be peace in the kingdom, I think is how it ends. It sounds right. Anyway, I'm going to be talking about last words. 

CA: [00:41:47] I love it. Okay. So what inspired this topic?

AE: [00:41:51] Well, actually, I kind of started thinking about it after the medieval execution or episode and kind of all the death row stuff, which I'm sure we'll talk about, about, we've got to stop saying I'm sure we'll talk about it.

Yeah, we do. It's okay. Someone's last word or final word is basically just like, it sounds it's the last statement they make before death. So this could happen days before this could happen right before they pass away. It really just depends on the person and the circumstances. A lot of times these words are recorded.

So this could be in personal diaries. This could be, you know, as far as like family documentation, but most of the time it's documented in courts for liability purposes. Right. Mostly for people who die for a purpose or, or death row or death row. Yeah. 

CA: [00:42:46] Um, do you talk about Eileen Wornos? 

AE: [00:42:50] I don't have her on my list, but we can look her up 

CA: [00:42:52] well.

So Aileen Wornos the lesbian serial killer, who was also a sex worker in Florida. There's a great movie about her with Charlise Theron and Christina Ricci called monster highly recommend. But the actual woman I leased to Eileen Wornos her last words. Had something to do with coming back on June 6th.

Oh, um, and how Google it in a minute, and we'll see if we can remember what year she doesn't say, Oh, she's coming back like Jesus, but it's going to be on June 6th. Good to know Mark your calendar. So we've got, you know, Oh, what day does this come out? June 3rd. Oh, three days from now. Check. See if you see Eileen Wornos anywhere, she looks like lucky 

AE: [00:43:40] to be alive right now.

CA: [00:43:43] Um, anyways, so check for Aileen Wornos. 

AE: [00:43:47] So there is a difference. There is a differentiation between final words or last words for those who died due to illness versus execution, war or accident. Makes sense. Those who died by illness may have impaired speech or be unconscious altogether. So that one's kind of a crap shoot as far as getting last words, right?

How easily and accurately are these last words recorded. Often, last words are documented for governmental purposes to liability. Like I just mentioned, I kind of jumped the gun. Um, this goes back many years. It is less likely that final words are recorded and published in civilian households. Uh, published, especially unless you're Carey Ann Watkins and your Carrie Fisher memoirs of a geisha or otherwise, it is important to note that last words can be inaccurately recorded.

So back to authorship, which we've talked about before, if you tell a story enough times, a lot of times that shit's going to change. And so sometimes granddaughters great-granddaughters are recording things that have happened and they might not necessarily be a hundred percent accurate. Right. 

CA: [00:45:01] Meaning that story of.

Your great, great grandma poisoning somebody and her last words were the confession. It may have actually been bullshit. 

AE: [00:45:09] How do you know my family secret? 

CA: [00:45:12] I've known you for how many years? 

AE: [00:45:14] So what I wanted to kind of do today was just do a couple little storytelling about some, some last words and who they were, what their crimes were.

So in cases, all of that, also, interestingly, Like the last meal is so fascinating to me. So that was 

CA: [00:45:34] included just thinking about the last meal, especially for death row inmates. Cause there's somebody who like just ordered a fuck ton of Chick-Filet and, 

AE: [00:45:42] and his ham and out. So sometimes depending on the year, like alcohol can be ordered up until, you know, they don't do that anymore, but that's how I would want to go write that down, but I've share.

All right. So Thomas J Grosso was a 32 year old male double murderer. Executed by lethal injection in Oklahoma state penitentiary and McAlester, Oklahoma United States on March 20th, 1995. He strangled a woman named Hilda Johnson, who was an 87 year old woman using her Christmas tree lights on Christmas Eve, 1990.

CA: [00:46:24] So when you, you said double murder, I think you said double murder. I was like, well, I mean, compared to a lot of the other people who are on death row, that doesn't sound like quite so bad, but 

AE: [00:46:34] Christmas lights, Christmas lights, she was eating seven. He stole $8 from her purse. What, how 

CA: [00:46:40] can get to that 

AE: [00:46:41] point in your life there's and loose change as well as her television set, which was sold for $125.

Oh, well, six months after or six months later, after moving to New York with his wife Laina, he murdered Leslie Holtz, an 81 year old man who lived in. Uh, Staten Island on July 4th, 1991. So he 

CA: [00:47:05] was the 

AE: [00:47:05] holiday killer. Yeah. Which is, that is weird, but he stole his social security check. Sounds like he had 

CA: [00:47:12] some childhood trauma around the 

AE: [00:47:14] holidays something's going on.

Yeah. So he was executed in Oklahoma on March 20th, 1995 for the two murders. He requested that his last meal be SpaghettiOs. Oh, okay. So we're really kind of shooting for the moon here, but instead he was given spaghetti and meatballs. Oh, that's a bummer for him. I wonder if it's because they had to order it from somewhere and they're like, I'm not fucking going to the store to make this guy like, whose job is it to go get the final meal?

You know? 

CA: [00:47:45] I mean, if you're about to kill somebody, I feel like you can spring for some SpaghettiOs. If that's what the man wants. Also, that would totally be my brother's last meal. Like what SpaghettiOs or ramen would be. Yeah. I swear. That's all he eats. Maybe Mac and cheese still. 

AE: [00:48:00] Yeah. He's grown. Tell him he's a whole adult.

CA: [00:48:03] I know, but yeah, SpaghettiOs, I feel like would be a lot cheaper and easier. So, 

AE: [00:48:09] well, his last words were related to his final meal. Oh, his last words were quote, I did not get SpaghettiOs. I got spaghetti. I want the press to know 

CA: [00:48:20] this.

AE: [00:48:25] Yup. All right. All right. So now we're going to talk about Richard Cobb, Cobb, who is 29. Spent a decade on death row for the murder of Kenneth van Deaver, a man whom he abducted and later killed in a convenience store robbery. 11 years ago, Rob abducted, van Deere, then 37 and two other women whom he shot with a shotgun and left for dead.

The woman survived to call police Beavan deer died. Cob never denied his role in the murder right before execution Richard Cobb stared into the face of Texas prison warden who attended his execution and told him that the lethal drugs just ingested in his body were quote. Awesome. Oh, why you felt that way?

Right? Quote life is death. Death is life. I hope that someday this absurdity that humanity has come to will come to an end. Cobb said when he asked for his last words, quote, life is too short. I hope that anyone that has negative energy towards me will resolve that life is too short to Harbor feelings of hatred and anger.

That's at warden and sad, according to an associated press reporter who witnessed the execution, but Cobb wasn't finished as the first injection entered his bloodstream. Cobb lifted his head from the gurney on which he. On which he was tied down and craned his neck to stare at the ward and who stood behind him.

Wow. Cobb shouted. This is great. That is awesome. Thank you, warden. least he was grateful. 

CA: [00:50:07] Um, so I think that while I'm processing all of these last words and the fact that they're all death row inmates, and just thinking about how long they spent on death row and I mean, I'm anti death penalty and I think you are too.

Yeah. Okay. So anti-death penalty people here. It's still fascinating. Like there's 

AE: [00:50:30] Oh yeah, it is. And we'll get into some, some quotes I'm doing all I'm doing is just some really shallow coverage of a bunch of cases. So we're going to have a ton of opportunity to dissect them all. Perfect. I love that. The next one is a guy you might've heard of.

His name is Ted Bundy. 

CA: [00:50:50] Oh. 

AE: [00:50:51] Good old Ted. So Jim was one of Ted Bundy's lawyers. Fred was the minister who had spent the night with him, you know, Ted Bundy was like Fred and Ted Jim, Fred and Ted walked into a bar. So, you know, Ted Bundy was a fucking narcissist and spent his final days essentially like.

Being interviewed by a reporter. 

CA: [00:51:14] And is he the one who had the, uh, head in his freezer or fridge or 

AE: [00:51:19] something when the police found them? It was that, that is Jeffrey Dahmer. Yep. Sorry. Okay. Continue. Uh, so Ted Bundy was the guy who he killed the sorority girls and in Florida and, uh, out West as well, escaped jail.

So he turned down his last meal. Bundy was an American serial killer kidnapper rapist, burglar, and necrophiles who assaulted and murdered numerous young women and girls during the 1970s. And possibly later, he was the guy that had the same profile. Which was the girls with Brown hair with the middle part.

So you basically, without bangs, it's comforting. Yeah. The bangs really saved you also, the fact that you were born 40 years later, shortly before his execution. And after more than a decade of denials, he confessed to 30 homicides that he committed in seven States between 1974 and 1978. 

CA: [00:52:16] If I had done all that, I think I would have worked up an appetite for a last 

AE: [00:52:19] meal, right?

Also this article says mean that he turned down his last meal. And so I don't know how credible this is, but we're going to roll with it. All of our sources are linked in our website. If anybody's ever curious, the true victim count will forever be unknown and could be much higher than the number to which Bundy confessed.

Although personally, I think it's the opposite because I think again, he's a fucking narcissist. And he wanted to go out with a bang. I don't know that he necessarily actually did. Yeah. It's hard to say. Yeah, many of Bundy's young female victims regarded him as handsome and charismatic, which were traits that he exploited to win their trust.

He would typically approach them in public places, um, faking injury or disability, or impersonating an authority figure before over-powering assault and assaulting them and more secluded locations. So he was super famous for his Volkswagen. Had it didn't have a handle on the inside of the passenger door.

Yeah. 

CA: [00:53:20] Once you're in the vehicle, you're in, you know, I know that so many people in our generation really loves serial killers and I do too. Just none of the information sticks. Like I enjoy listening to it. I just can't keep them all straight. 

AE: [00:53:34] Yup. That's understandable. They're all the same. They're all white men from the sixties and seventies, 

CA: [00:53:40] except for Eileen Wornos.

Which might be why she's my favorite. 

AE: [00:53:43] She's the only way you can actually remember. Um, and there are also very few female serial killers. Yeah. Because we don't get caught subtle. You heard it here first. I didn't do a trigger warning, but obviously we're going to be talking about, I mean he's. Yeah. Anyway.

Okay. So he's sometimes revisited his secondary crime scene for hours at a time grooming and performing sexual acts with the decomp, uh, decomposing corpse until wild animals kind of got to it. Unfortunately. I mean, you did say necrophilia, so I feel like that was. A good trigger warning. Yeah. He decapitated at least 12 of his victims.

And for a period of time, he kept some of the severed heads as mementos in his apartment. So maybe I know you were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer, but yeah, 

CA: [00:54:30] but I mean, similar vibe 

AE: [00:54:33] on a few occasions, he simply broke into, um, places at night, um, and bludgeoned his victims in his sleep. So that was. A bunch of different people, but also those, uh, sorority girls and Fordham Bundy was executed in the electric chair at Florida state prison on January 24th, 1989.

Biographer Ann rule described him as quote, a sadistics sociopath who took pleasure from another human's pain and the control he had over his victims to the point of death. And even after he once called himself the most cold hearted son of a bitch you'd ever meet attorney pole Nelson, a member of his last defense team wrote quote, Ted was the very Def definition of heartless and evil.

And his final words were Jim and Fred. I'd like you to give my love to my family and friends. Oh, I don't know how many friends he had left or how much love he had. Yep. 

CA: [00:55:31] But whatever it was, he was 

AE: [00:55:32] given that whatever it was. Yeah. Jimmy L Glass was an American convicted murderer executed by the state of Louisiana.

He is probably best known not for his crime, but as a petitioner in the U S Supreme court case glass versus Virginia, before committing a capital crime glass already had a criminal record. What the fellow inmate, Jimmy Wingo, which is great name, fantastic name glass escaped from the Webster parish, Louisiana jail, and December of 1982.

And during their escape, they killed Newton Brown and his wife Earlene Neeley around at their home and Dixie in outside. Mindan. Which all sound like made up places it's about say is any of that real? The Brown's son, Gary was the son-in-law of judge Charles, a Marvin of the Louisiana court of appeals for the second circuit based in Shreveport.

Can you 

CA: [00:56:35] imagine naming a kid, Gary? 

AE: [00:56:38] Not once. Not never, but Hey, I'll always be a snail to me. 

CA: [00:56:45] Uh, but Hey Shreveport. 

AE: [00:56:47] Hey, Shreveport what's up? Bless your heart. Love y'all. So glass and Wingo were also arrested. Both were sentenced to death and the electric jar glass made headlines in 1985 as a petitioner in the Supreme court case.

He argued that executions by electro, by electrocution violate the eighth and 14th amendment in the United States constitution as cruel and unusual punishment. I agree, but the court. By major five, four found that the electrocution as an authorized method of execution is constitutional. 

I have so 

CA: [00:57:26] many thoughts about the death penalty.

I know, and I know that that's not actually what we're here for today. So we'll save the majority of them. However, it's totally cruel and unusual punishment. And the fact that we still do, we still have the death penalty in the U S.  

AE: [00:57:41] we don't have the electric chair. 

CA: [00:57:44] I mean, I guess that's progress, but not by much.

Nope. 

AE: [00:57:49] That's all we have. What are some intersectionality with an electric 

CA: [00:57:52] chair and electroconvulsive shock therapy? 

AE: [00:57:54] Don't want it. Okay. Don't want that glass was electrocuted on June 12th, 1989 at the age of 25 and became the 78th person executed in the United States since 1977 at 25 25. 

CA: [00:58:11] Oh my God. 

AE: [00:58:13] Yep.

And his last words were quote, I'd rather be fishing. Same, same. So let's talk about John Wayne Gacy. He was the guy who dressed up like a clown. Uh, huh? Remember that he, yes. So he sexually assaulted and killed young boys and buried them under his house. It's coming back to me now. Okay. So on his way to execution, Gacy told a prison guard, quote, kiss my ass.

Now that's a hell of a way to go out. According to his hometown newspaper and the Chicago trim you Tribune. His last meal was 12 fried shrimp. Oh, a 12 piece bucket of original recipe. KFC chicken. 

CA: [00:58:58] Maybe that's what I was thinking. Maybe it wasn't Chick-fil-A maybe it was KFC. I knew someone had some chicken, French fries.

AE: [00:59:06] Good choice and a pound of strawberries. Interesting. A pound. I mean, it's not hard to do. They're kind of, they're probably dens. So Gacy was an American serial killer and rapist. He sexually assaulted, tortured and murdered at least 33, teenage boys and young men between 1972 and 1978 and cook County, Illinois.

Illinois what happened?  itself. I think it was getting ready. I was excited about making the point. Like you can't kill 33 people in the same County and expect them not to link it to you. Right? Like spread it out. Come on. 

CA: [00:59:46] I love that. We're giving advice to serial killers. 

AE: [00:59:49] All of Casey's known murders were committed inside his ranch, his house, his victims, or typically kind of Lord to his house or forced, uh, by deception and all, but one victim were murdered by either exfixation or strangulation with a makeshift tourniquet.

His first victim was stabbed Gacy buried 26 of his victims in the crawlspace of his house. Three other victims were buried elsewhere on his property while the bodies of his last four victims were discarded at a river nearby. Right.

CA: [01:00:25] He was married. Right. He was married. What does it take for a wife to not notice 

AE: [01:00:30] all?

That's a great question. Also. The smell. Yeah. 

CA: [01:00:34] Yeah. Yeah. We know how women feel about their houses smelling. Good. 

AE: [01:00:38] Also like I'm going off script here, but like he had all these kids come work on his house, so they would, he would literally take them into the basement and be like, we're going to work on plumbing.

Like, can you help me, you know, work on the plumbing? And they would literally dig their own grave. 

CA: [01:00:54] Absolutely not. When, so at what point was he dressing up like at clown? Because he wasn't like dressed up like a clown while he was asking kids to build their own graves. The 

AE: [01:01:03] clown thing is. Just something that he did, like as a side hustle, which is an interesting choice tech side hustle.

But his I'm glad you brought that up because his, uh, Pogo the clown is his like ego. Yeah. Yeah. And he like drew self portraits of itself, which like sell, you can buy them. And I want one, 

CA: [01:01:27] is that who inspired the clown from, from it American horror story from whatever season was it 

AE: [01:01:35] from Freak Show? Uh, no, I don't think so, but kind of a similar vibe, right?

Well, I mean, he's terrifying if that's what you mean. That's what I would call it. Similar vibe. Yes. But less like, like knock you over and drag you away, I guess. Not, no, I'm, I'm pretty sure that 

CA: [01:01:56] there's 

AE: [01:01:56] similar vibes. Uh, he did he inspire the clown from it? No. Oh, okay. No, I don't have that's Stephen King. He has a monotone.

Yeah. 

CA: [01:02:07] Um, Do you have a fear of clowns?

AE: [01:02:10] Not, um, not particularly 

CA: [01:02:12] me either. And I know a lot of people who do a lot of people, all of this. I understand why 

AE: [01:02:18] I think it's cause I love Tim Curry. Yeah. 

CA: [01:02:23] And he was a clown. 

AE: [01:02:24] He was the original It 

CA: [01:02:26] the O G B O I T. 

AE: [01:02:31] Oh rocky. So he spent 14 years on death row before he was executed by lethal injection, uh, on May 10th, 1994.

And they do have his last words documented as kiss my ass. 

CA: [01:02:47] If you got to go out and you know, you're about to go out, kiss my ass or about this goes in a short phrase 

AE: [01:02:52] I can think of. Yep. All right. We're we're hitting on all my guys. Okay. Cause we're going to talk about HH Holmes. Ooh. So Herman Webster, Mudget better known as Dr.

Henry Howard Holmes or more commonly known as HH Holmes was an American serial killer of the 19th century. While he confessed to 27 murders, only nine could be plausibly confirmed. And several of the people who he claimed to have murdered were still alive. So he was full of shit, but he did kill. We know he killed a few people.

He killed a lot of his wives because he was married multiple times. Right. We know he killed one of his partners in his scheme and his wife. He also killed children. 

CA: [01:03:38] You know, it would be interesting is. And I know that you're covering mostly all men, mostly men. Yeah. 

AE: [01:03:45] Men are terrible. So they're all listed.

Yeah. Fair. Um, but 

CA: [01:03:48] there was the black widow of Burlington. Yeah. Uh, blanche 

AE: [01:03:54] was her name blanche. I don't know, but I know who you're talking 

CA: [01:03:57] about. Yep. I'm curious to find out, you know, just more women and what their last words were and how they compare and like, What's the Venn diagram for that look like 

AE: [01:04:07] that cuss words at all.

Yeah, he is commonly said to have killed as many as 200, many victims were said to have been killed in a max in a, a building that he owned, which we know is like, you know, he turned his hotel. He would have people who are coming to the world's fair in Chicago. He would have them stay in his hotel and then, um, he would kill them.

He also was notorious for taking out life insurance policies on people that he knew. Um, he worked for a short time as a pharmacist, um, took out a life insurance policy on the owner of the company. And then that person non-industrially loosely died. That's why he had a lot of wives. None of which were legal of course.

Cause he'd been married, you know, multiple times over. Right. Um, also the, you know, they were unaware that he had other. Partners in general, he would take out life insurance policies on them. He also owned a store that he would require the employees to take out life insurance policies. And a couple of them went missing.

Can I share a quick 

CA: [01:05:13] conspiracy theory? Yeah. Cause I just Googled H Holmes because I wanted to find out his dates. So this is HH Holmes who ran what they call the murder. Castle. Holmes was renowned for being a document keeper, however, 1888 and 1891, which were the times that Jack of Jack the ripper and the ripper murders homes had no documents.

So there might be some beliefs that, um, HH Holmes and Jack the ripper are the same person. 

AE: [01:05:43] I don't think that's true. I don't think so either, 

CA: [01:05:46] but what a cool conspiracy theory, I could fall down that rabbit hole real 

AE: [01:05:50] quick, unless he changed his Mo because Jack, the ripper killed sex workers. 

CA: [01:05:54] And was really like messy and methodical and 

AE: [01:05:58] he wrote to the press.

Right. And he wrote in blood weird things. They think there's, they let me just go down a rabbit hole real quick. Cause I get excited. Yeah. So they know that or they believe, um, Jack the ripper to be somebody who was either like, I'm not a mechanic, but a like a medical professional or a butcher. Yeah.

Because his victims. Uh, so he prayed on victims in the middle of the night. He would often find sex workers who were basically hanging out on the streets at that time in London, you could rent rooms by the night, but there were a lot of people who were experiencing homelessness and basically they had nowhere to go.

So he killed them all with a blade, but he was one of the first people that wrote to the press. And that's why everybody's obsessed with him. Because he, he wrote notes on one of the bodies and they found it and they published it. Right. Uh, he also tried to write in blood, it's all this crazy stuff. 

CA: [01:06:58] They also think that he came to Wilmington, North Carolina there, they think they've tied him to a murder in Wilmington, 

AE: [01:07:03] really shout out to Wilmington.

Also, my sister was telling me because she lives in Austin and she said that there's a murderer in Austin that also kind of fits the MO of, um, Jack the ripper. So they, they never caught him. Uh, they have theories about who he was, but never made an arrest. So the biggest thought is that, you know, this guy's not going to stop killing.

So he got the fuck out of London. Yeah. And he had to be somewhere else, 

CA: [01:07:37] maybe through Wilmington. And then, 

AE: [01:07:39] and then down to Texas down to Texas, cause everything's bigger in Texas. Um, the murders, even the murders. Yeah, I could just talk about it all the time, all day. But besides being a serial killer, HH Holmes was a con artist and a big bigamist, as I mentioned, the subject of more than 50 lawsuits in Chicago alone, which I didn't know.

50 

CA: [01:08:10] men who got the time. 

AE: [01:08:11] Who's got the time. That's a great question. He also sold, um, he sold the skeletons of his victims to universities. Oh, yay. Yeah. I do remember reading that. Yeah. So HH Holmes was executed on May 7th, 1896, nine days before his 35th birthday. He was a busy man. He got up very early in the morning, another morning person.

And he was finally, he was finally convicted of the murder of his friend and accomplished Benjamin, uh, potential. Pit Benjamin button, Benjamin button, Brad Pitt, during his trial for the murder. He confessed to numerous. Other of course he did murders. Yeah. Um, but his final words were quote, take your time old, man.

CA: [01:09:05] He was in no rush. He'd already accomplished everything he needed to accomplish. He was done. 

AE: [01:09:10] So what I would like to do is move to some historical figures. All right. So we're going to be talking about Kimberly McCarthy. Kimberly McCarthy was an American death row inmate who was convicted and sentenced to death in 1997 for the murder of her neighbor, who was a 71 year old retired college professor named Dorothy Booth.

And this was in Lancaster, Texas. Yes, of course. So it was said that she was, the neighbor died when Kimberly was trying to rob either her or her. Uh, place of residence. She was also suspected in the murder of two other elderly Texan women, um, for which she was never tried after her final federal appeal was denied in July, 2012.

Her ex execution date was set for January 29th, 2013. Her execution date was pushed twice to June 26, 2013. McCarthy continued to proclaim her innocence for her crime and stated that she was framed for murder. On June 26, 2013. McCarthy was executed by the state of Texas by lethal injection. Becoming the 500th person to be executed by the state of Texas using this method.

And her final words were quote, this is not a loss. This is a win, you know where I'm going. I'm going home to be with Jesus. Keep the faith. I love y'all. Thank you, chaplain. Amen. Amen. That's so sad. I know. All right, let's get on my last one is going to be your very best friend. Jeffrey Dahmer had the head in the fridge.

Head in the fridge. So Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer also known as the Milwaukee cannibal. Yep. Was an American serial killer and sex offender who committed the rape and murder and dismemberment of 17 men and boys. Between 1978 and 1991, many of his later murders involved necrophilia, cannibalism, and the permanent preservation of body parts, typically all or part of this 

CA: [01:11:23] well, and the pain, he really liked the pain.

Right. I'm pretty sure that there was some jars of pins. 

AE: [01:11:30] Yeah. There were ears and all kinds of shit. Yeah. You didn't have like a nipple belt, like the other guy, right. Although diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Uh, schizotypical personality disorder. Schizotypal schizotypal thank you. In a psychotic disorder.

Sure. Uh, Dahmer was found to be legally sane at his trial convicted a 15 of the 16 murders he had committed in Wisconsin. Dahmer was sentenced to 15 terms of life imprisonment on February 15th, 1992. He was later sentenced to 16 terms of life imprisonment for an additional homicide committed in Ohio in 1978.

On November 28th, 1994. Dahmer was beaten to death by Christopher Scarver . A fellow inmate at the Columbia correctional Institute and claimed quote, I don't care if I live or die. Go ahead and kill me. Were his last words 

CA: [01:12:31] I listened to a podcast about Dahmer recently, which a lot of the true crime podcasts don't cover the popular people anymore because like there've been so overdone.

Yeah. But for people like me who short-term memory with, uh, serial killers is exceedingly short. It was good to hear. Um, and it was fascinating because Dahmer has a brother like a younger brother who's I think relatively normal. And we know that like mental health isn't often or ever an indicator of familial health 

AE: [01:13:06] and his father's the same way he wrote a book.

Yeah. 

CA: [01:13:09] Yeah, my son, was it my 

AE: [01:13:11] son Dahmer? I don't know the name of it, but he did like a hearing. He was on bruh. Yeah. Was like, he basically, he went out to be like, I don't know. What's crazy. Right. 

CA: [01:13:21] And I think it's just so interesting. And it goes back to a lot of this idea of what drives people to this point and for Dahmer, who did have diagnoses, what treatments could have been made available to him.

Like if people had recognized it early enough, if he had had access 

AE: [01:13:40] that interesting. What I know about that particular case is that his dad said that the only really red flags were that he was a withdrawn child, which I think is only a red flag. In hindsight, when you're trying to equate behavior with patterns, he also 

CA: [01:14:01] started torturing animals or 

AE: [01:14:03] something at a younger age, he did collect.

Uh, yes, he did kill, he did kill animals. Um, but that wasn't known, I think to the family until after, but he did, like, he did go around on his bike, like looking for dead animals. Yeah. Yeah. And that was known to like the kids in the neighborhood, but never to the parents. 

CA: [01:14:22] Well, and when we think about kids who are just different, like, you don't want to point out the kids who are different assume that they're going to grow up to be serial killers, because the chances are really small.

But I just, like, I worry 

AE: [01:14:38] about your kid becoming a serial killer. I get it. Yeah. Anyways, so CA how do these topics intersect? 

CA: [01:14:46] I love that every week you look to me, like I'm going to have an answer. It's hard. 

AE: [01:14:51] Um, 

CA: [01:14:51] I also feel like, like we were talking about at the beginning when you end with or not, and then you're like, okay, so it's my part.

Now shove 

AE: [01:14:59] it off automatically answer here. So I think the most, um, obvious would be like what you had mentioned earlier with, you know, death by electrocution, which I don't love. So I don't really want to go there, but, um, I think that 

CA: [01:15:15] electrical, current being in both of our stories. A intersection. Let's just bring it up a little bit.

I did Google. Aileen Wornos's his last words. She's my favorite serial killer. If we have to 

AE: [01:15:27] have a favorite serial killer, you do as part of the Burkitt's 

CA: [01:15:30] it's part of being a millennial and listening to the narrative podcasts over 2020, everyone picked a serial. 

AE: [01:15:36] Okay. It's divided. It really is. It's like a Hogwarts house I'm telling you.

CA: [01:15:40] Okay. So my Hogwarts house is Eileen wornos. Okay. Also, because I think that her story is so traumatic. Like she tried to get out of sex work and wasn't able to find a job. She found love. She wasn't able to actually have her needs met and then she was sexually assaulted and reportedly only, I think murdered initially only murdered the people who sexually assaulted her.

Yeah. And was still sentenced to death and died. On October 9th of 2002 at the age of 46 that's by li lethal injection. Um, her last words were, yes. I would like to say that I'm sailing with the rock and I'll be back like independence day with Jesus, June 6th. Like the movie, big mothership and all I'll be back.

I'll be 

AE: [01:16:32] back. Well, you heard it here. First folks. We'll see you in three days. Girly. Some people are probably listening to this on June 6th. Oh, that's true. So look over your shoulder. 

CA: [01:16:44] Some, if you are listening on June 6th, if you see a woman walking around with a mullet, Oh. 

AE: [01:16:49] Um, like a glorious 

CA: [01:16:50] mullet glorious Mollett who has some weird facial expressions.

Um, super pissed. Yeah. Pretty jaded. Go watch the movie monster. Oh yeah. Oh, she won an Academy award for that. I think. Then Charlise Theron is a gorgeous woman and to be able to pull off Eileen Wornos as well as she did was phenomenal. I don't know how far into this podcasting thing. We have to be the cover monster, but it's, uh, near the top of my cult movie list.

Okay. 

AE: [01:17:24] Does 

CA: [01:17:24] it, does it count as a cult movie, I'm going to count it as a cult 

AE: [01:17:27] movie. You can do whatever we want. I love that. All right. Well, thank you guys so much for listening to us, ramble on our podcast. We love each and every one of you. If you support us, please head over to our Patrion. It is patrion.com/pod.

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CA: [01:18:17] And if you're out there, keep listening. 

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Shoot us an email podwithoutanaud@gmail.com. Our cover art is created by an actual angel Ashlie Acevedo . Our music is by Zach Smith and Ted Oliver editing by Jacob Beeson. 

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