Cults Episode 2: NXIVM and Labyrinth - Transcript

CA: [00:00:00] hi, teamsters

I'm Carey Ann 

AE: [00:00:16] and I'm Alison, and this is podcast without an audience 

CA: [00:00:19] where two friends. Pick two topics and find intersectionality. 

AE: [00:00:23] Welcome to cult episode two. 

CA: [00:00:27] Uh, So this is our cult adjacent episode, 

AE: [00:00:30] hashtag cult adjacent. Yeah. So I'm going to be covering a cult, an actual cult 

CA: [00:00:38] Actual cult. And I am going to cover a cult fave.

And this case a cult movie, that's a movie with a cult following movie about a cult. No, not in this case. Not at some, not today. Uh, a movie that has inspired others to form a cult. Absolutely. 

AE: [00:00:58] I am. And I'm sure we will get to it, but I have my shirt on, in support of your topic. 

I see your 

CA: [00:01:07] babe with the power shirt.

Yes. Ma'am spoiler alert. Well, we are talking about labyrinth. We 

are, but stay tuned because I go first this time, we 

want to let you down easy at the end and not leave you with that hanger. Like beacon actual cult. 

AE: [00:01:25] My this week is super interesting last week. I think I went a little, well, not easy, but this kind of let me, let her stop scratching.

Dolly. We're recording a podcast, get it together. I now have three animals in my house, so it's extremely, um, It loud. I've got a dog asleep in my lap. We've got two white cats running around. It's possible. You might hear, 

CA: [00:01:50] um, we've had all sorts of animals make appearances on our podcast so far, we're going to have to start making merch for the animals specifically because we also are artistic director.

Some. Yeah, angel actually actual angel Ashley and our bomb diggity editor, Jacob, um, also have pets now I have two. So look out for pet merch at some point. 

AE: [00:02:18] All right. We are going to be talking about a cult. I'm not sure if you've heard of this, actually, we've never had an actual conversation. Have you ever heard of NXIVM?

Um, I think I've seen 

CA: [00:02:27] commercials for it. Is it like Viagra? 

AE: [00:02:30] No. Well, it is sometimes sometimes type of pharmaceutical drug. However, we are going to be talking about NXIVM, the multi marketing level, MLM and MLM. Yeah. Started by a man named Keith Raniere. Mount Rainier, Mount Rene, Paul Revere. Um, so Keith Raniere kind of fit the mold of the charismatic cult leader in a lot of ways, but he was interesting cause he played on his brains.

He's not the cutest guy you've ever seen. He's not the tallest guy. He's not going to overpower you. He's going to sit you down and talk at you for hours. 

CA: [00:03:11] So he did not have a choice between brains and brawn. No, you literally only got the brains. 

AE: [00:03:15] Okay. Genetics chose for him for sure. But I it's interesting.

Cause I watched a, uh, you can see a lot of his, I guess, conversations or interviews online and he'll literally just talk at you for an hour. And he kind of talks himself in circles. I listened to probably an hour and 15 minutes of one and I was like, he just tries to confuse you. So he definitely has, you know, he's definitely trying to overpower you with his brain.

I feel like 

CA: [00:03:40] that's really common for cult leaders, like, well, 

AE: [00:03:43] when they have an answer for everything, 

CA: [00:03:45] right. And it doesn't matter what the answer is. No, they're just going to talk until you forgotten what your question was thinking specifically about, I don't know how political we want to get, but the cult of Trump, where he literally would say nothing and everything, and then contradict himself 15 times within three speeches and everyone was still like, but he's talking, 

AE: [00:04:05] I'm smart.

I'm smarter than anyone else. I've got to just ask anybody. That's probably a direct quote in 1990, Keith founded the MLM consumers' Buyline incorporated. It was during the creation of this company that he went, met a woman named Tony, Natalie, who would later become his partner for eight years. Ms. CBI shut down in 1993, after being investigated by 20 separate States.

CA: [00:04:30] That was fast, right? Yeah. What was the time span 

AE: [00:04:33] on that? 90 to 93, 

CA: [00:04:34] three years in 20 States, that's an imp there's gotta be a record 

AE: [00:04:38] there. Some way. The state of New York filed a lawsuit against the company, alleging that they were a pyramid scheme, which not, they're not wrong. And then he was forbid for selling or marketing the company.

Ever again, 

CA: [00:04:49] is it illegal to be a pyramid scheme? 

AE: [00:04:52] It is illegal to not provide an actual service. 

CA: [00:04:55] Okay. But being a pyramid scheme, intrinsically is not illegal. 

AE: [00:05:00] The scheme is the important part. And having an MLM is not the idea of an MLM is like, I recruit you. You recruit three of your friends and then we're all together.

You have goals that are set from the company, and then you're reaching to meet those right now, if I'm having you invest in a company that doesn't really provide a service or is intentionally taking your money for no particular reason, that is illegal sounds a little problematic. Yes, it is. Um, That next year, Keith created a new company called national health network, which was again, an MLM.

And this time they sold 

CA: [00:05:36] vitamins and minerals and 

AE: [00:05:38] supplements, and that business failed five years later. Okay. So at that time, Keith was dating Tony and he introduced her to a woman named Nancy Salzman. She was a nurse, a hypnotist, very smart intellectual woman. I would say bad-ass, but then she kind of a part of our story, but they kind of get together and come up with this really great idea, head up to Albany, New York.

And that's where this story takes place. Keith kind of became infatuated with Nancy and together they founded the executive success program, a personal development company. This company was later rebranded under the name NXIVM. And the goal was to continue to assist people and like. The self-help and self-improvement category.

I think like what we know about people who are looking for answers is, is that they're very malleable and can write 

CA: [00:06:28] easily influenced definitely easily influenced, likely to buy in to all the self-help books, which there are some great self-help books out there, but yeah, I could see how this could be.

You can easily get sucked into it. Yeah. So I think what's interesting about this so far, and I'm sure you're going to talk about it more is. Just like being a pyramid scheme is not intrinsically illegal. I also don't think of it as always being a cult. No, but it sounds like you've really found the trifecta, like the illegal cult multilevel marketing.

AE: [00:06:57] If you're unfamiliar with this cult, what's about to happen. You're going to be completely unprepared. 

CA: [00:07:04] I am in fact completely unprepared. 

AE: [00:07:06] Okay. Some, yeah. We'll be doing some listener discretion. Oh, comments here shortly. I expected. So when they got together to think about where they wanted to go with this organization, they then decided that Keith was going to be referred to from the group as Vanguard and that she was going to be referred to as prefect, hashtag HP 

CA: [00:07:33] isn't Vanguard.

Also a medication. 

AE: [00:07:36] Um, and now it's a character from a video game. 

CA: [00:07:39] Oh, perfect. 

AE: [00:07:40] Okay. Uh, it also sounds like on guard and fence. Yes. Unbelievable. Liaison we're near was going to the idea was that Renier was going to be kind of the guru, the front of the house. And that Nancy was going to be doing a lot of the teaching.

And a lot of like the training videos kind of being seen from that, that point, they sold seminars and classes, the initial course, which was a five day intensive course cost $2,700. 

CA: [00:08:07] That's quite a deal. Do you think so? I think so. Compared to today's prices, I don't know if 

AE: [00:08:12] you've checked the market lately for the five day cult seminars.

Yeah, I haven't, but I'm sure they're on Groupon somewhere and we'll be checking after this. Sponsored by Groupon. Um, these programs were called executive success programs or ESPs. So from 1998 to 2018, 16,000 people took that course alone. And so I know that you're not a math genius. I just, I am. In 

CA: [00:08:37] fact, not thank you for, for already doing the homework for 

AE: [00:08:41] me.

You're welcome. That's over $43 million. My God, uh, Bubba, 

CA: [00:08:46] excuse me. No wonder they didn't have to raise their prices any more than that. Yeah. 

AE: [00:08:51] Yeah. And that was just for one, we'll go into this a little bit, uh, here in a second, but this was kind of getting your foot in the door. So you'd go and take this class.

You'd feel really, really enlightened. They said that day three was kind of like, like you're skeptical day one and two. Day three you're committed. And then eventually the company comes up with all these like other courses and all these other companies under NXIVM that are going to be for different topics.

Like just for women, just for men, even, uh, courses for children, athletics, uh, just. Anything you can think of. They've got like a sub company. 

CA: [00:09:28] Yeah, it's interesting. I was recently reading about a woman who got wrapped up in like a yoga cult, and I don't remember much more beyond that. So you'll have to do the research on that.

Um, the U S yes. So, um, but basically she's kind of said the same thing. Like she was interested in doing yoga and then she went on this like five day retreat or 10 day retreat or whatever it was. And by like day three, you're. Surrounded by all these people who like hype you up and suddenly your brain just kind of switches.

And you're like, Oh, okay. Of course we should be doing all these things. 

AE: [00:10:02] How many cults are developing during and right after COVID I'm so curious.  hungry for that intimate connection. Human connection. 

CA: [00:10:14] Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that. Like even you and I off record have talked about like, how do we make friends as an adult?

And something like this would be a great opportunity to meet other people who had similar goals. Like I can see the appeal. 

AE: [00:10:29] Yeah. And if you see any of the footage of these seminars, I mean, really it's. Intentionally, what they're trying to do is make people feel better, feel included. Part of what it is, is to strip yourself of all of your preconceived ideas.

And we're starting from scratch. So anything that seems like intuition, We're going to go ahead and ignore that because we're reprogramming you to think and act differently. Thus. 

CA: [00:10:57] Yeah. So I bet day one is a lot of you might feel uncomfortable, like validating, they start to feel uncomfortable. This is not going to be an easy thing.

And so your brain is like, Oh, I am feeling uncomfortable there. Right. Let me keep listening. And then by day three, they're like, Here's what we actually want you to. 

AE: [00:11:16] Now this isn't one of those things where they say like, get rid of all your friends and family. Oh, that's good. Yeah. But they really do kind of isolate themselves.

Yeah. The classes, the ESPs were very kind of ritualistic, just like a lot of religion is, um, however, they weren't really considering themselves a church. This is kind of like a meditation lifestyle. Uh, like, uh, just the way that you live your life 

CA: [00:11:41] It's a Lifestyle cult. Exactly. not a think I'm

AE: [00:11:43] jesus cult. Correct.

So they have a lot of ritualistic practices, like quote, removing your shoes, wearing different colored sashes to denote their rinks in the ESP multilevel universe and sounding 

CA: [00:11:57] that sounds very Handmaid's tale. Like all the different colors for the different ranks. Yeah, 

AE: [00:12:01] well, and part of it is, is, you know, you're, you're required to do X, Y, and Z in order to move up, but it's essentially, so you can look into the room, see who is fully devoted, who's making their numbers and it be kinds.

I mean, it's literally a ranking system. Wow. And standing when higher ranking members enter the room, all greetings from Vanguard, Keith Raniere includes kissing on the mouth. So you see all these videos of people, they do, they shake their hands very, uh, uniquely, they like kind of cup boat. Like if you were to shake my hand, I would cut both my hands around yours.

Right. And then they have the kissing on the mouth thing, which is what you would do with Keith, but also like what you would do to greet other people in the organization. 

CA: [00:12:43] I mean, I am all for free love.

AE: [00:12:47] You're all for kissing strangers. 

CA: [00:12:49] Really I can not wait to hug a stranger 

AE: [00:12:51] at this thing. I, they're not strangers though.

That's true. Like a family, but anyway, you just, you just also just 

CA: [00:12:57] remembered what Vanguard is. Oh, tell me it's like a, uh, insurance mutual investment retirement thing. Oh, 

AE: [00:13:04] save for your retirement. Was Vanguard. Interesting. I did not. Sorry. 

CA: [00:13:10] I have some money in Vanguard, I think at somewhere. Oh really? I was like, I've heard this before and it's not from a video game.

AE: [00:13:18] Yeah. They had 17 hour, very alienated days. So they were kind of isolated depending on what you were doing that kept you pretty busy. And it's important to note that ESP these classes were just like the entry point. Into the world of, of NXIVM. Like I said, the next step is to get involved with all of the other classes and other things that you're required to spend thousands and thousands of dollars.

Wow. In search for enlightenment. The idea of the initial seminar was to start to get people to rethink go against their initial instincts and teaching and rewire their brains in the hopes of enlightenment and understanding this program had a 12 point mission statement, which was read out loud each session.

One of which was quote, there are no ultimate victims. Therefore I will not choose to be a victim. 

CA: [00:14:08] That sounds a little gaslight-y to me. 

AE: [00:14:11] It's it's interesting. I've heard people be like, you know, I choose not to let so-and-so happen so that I become X, Y, and Z. So you might say a family member has a certain behavior that you ultimately want to choose not to replicate in your own life.

So maybe you have an issue with your parents. They treated you a certain way. You've out to raise your children differently. For example. Well, that's fine, but being a victim, ultimately at the end of the day, 

CA: [00:14:40] It's not their fault. Right? Right. So I think that what's interesting about this as the language.

Like we talk about this in social work is you're not, I mean, you are a victim of sexual assault, but you're also a survivor of sexual assault and that's a lot about mindset and we really try to encourage people to see themselves as survivors, but ultimately survivors are born from victims. So I think too, Say that you're never a victim can be really problematic.

Yeah. But I understand what they're saying. 

AE: [00:15:11] Yeah. Yeah. It's impossible for the people who end up being the main characters in our stories, not to be considered victims. However important to note high ranking members, executives, board members were living together in a house. Some would consider it a commune, but also at the end of the day, you can't really.

Trust like a lot of this is going to be kind of blown up as far as dissecting. What part of this is called and what's not okay. They live together. They live together in a condo. So how many of them? 

CA: [00:15:40] I think like six. Okay. So it's a little bit, it's like two, three couples living together. 

AE: [00:15:46] The people living in the house as well as other high-ranking members were often working.

All day and all night and often performing these services for free. So a lot of people are teaching these classes in mult, in multiple different companies under Nexium. So they're waking up early they're, you know, training from 8:00 AM to noon, and then they got to run and do something with Keith. And so they're kind of drained, right.

But he's teaching them, you know, you don't really know, I need as much sleep as your body thinks exactly. And were all those feelings. 

CA: [00:16:18] Yeah. This is like the perfect marriage of let's give you some serotonin endorphins and hypey up. Let's reduce your sleep. Let's make you as vulnerable as possible to whatever it is as we want to stick 

AE: [00:16:33] in your brain.

That's right. Endorphins make you happy. Happy people. Don't shoot their husband. They just don't. They just don't the organization at this time was really growing traction. Did you ever watch Smallville? 

CA: [00:16:45] Yeah. So I think I've seen like a few episodes. I remember he didn't have a belly button that might, you know, that was Kyle X, Y, or something like that.

They came on back to 

AE: [00:16:55] back. I remember seeing. Um, uh, a billboard of the Kyle X, Y in times square. And it was just this giant, him just like lifting his shirt and it's just abs and no belly button is very concerning to her a 13 year old. 

CA: [00:17:10] Yeah. So, um, I've may have also seen an episode or two of small village, obviously did not stick.

AE: [00:17:16] I mean, it was a really big show, um, in the early two thousands, um, one of the main characters. The actress's name is Alison Mack. Uh, not to be confused with Alex Mack from Nickelodeon. She joined NXIVM as well as the Seagram heiresses, Sarah and Claire Bronfanman  (?) , 

CA: [00:17:36] the 

AE: [00:17:36] Bronfmans, the problem of our hearts, the bra, Oh, falls family.

There they are. They're the alcohol company. They started during prohibition. They're really super rich. So they're really good people to have. Yeah. 

CA: [00:17:47] Definitely keep them in 

AE: [00:17:48] your back pocket for sure. And then lastly, a woman named Sarah Edmondson who was also an actress, she was in, are you afraid of the dark?

Um, Oh, I love that show. She was also a voice actor. She was in one of the, my little ponies, the newer ones. Um, there's 

CA: [00:18:04] an interesting juxtaposition. Yeah. 

AE: [00:18:07] I mean when you're an actor, you just do what you can. 

CA: [00:18:09] Yeah. We're all making ends meet. We're all human. 

AE: [00:18:11] I mean, this organization was really, really growing.

They actually were able to get the Dalai Lama to come the Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama. Yeah. 

CA: [00:18:21] And knows when he's met him. 

AE: [00:18:23] Oh, wow. Was it Heath? This motherfucker. 

CA: [00:18:26] Nope. I mean him too, 

AE: [00:18:29] but he was basically endorsing the company. This is, uh, this is paraphrasing, but basically he was saying, um, anyone who supports ethics?

Oh, so one of their big points was like, we need to do what's ethically. Right. So I'm sure that was framed in its own way with verbiage and language from this organization. But that was one of their big 

CA: [00:18:51] things, I mean sure. But. Who who's going to say, Oh, no one needs ethics. Let's throw those out the window.

AE: [00:18:58] Who needs ethics? Let's throw them out. 

CA: [00:19:02] I just feel like it's the most basic thing that you can build a statement on when have ethics. We have period ethics. We aren't going to tell you what they are.

AE: [00:19:11] Right. Don't ask questions. And it was Sarah Edmondson, who is the hero of our story, because if it weren't for her, we would not know the truth about NXIVM, which turns out to be a sex cult.

CA: [00:19:27] That was one of the bigger twists. I did not see that coming. I was all prepared for. A comment about her having ethics and then you throw sex. She's got ethics. She knows what they are. 

AE: [00:19:40] Yeah. Broader organization and NXIVM. There was one of the smaller companies or organizations called D.O.S And this stands for dominance  (something in latin) 

you nailed it. Good job. Thanks. Um, so this is Latin. So what does this mean? 

CA: [00:20:01] Uh, I have no idea. 

AE: [00:20:04] So it loosely translate to Lord over obedient, female companions or Lord over female slaves. 

CA: [00:20:11] That was going to be my first guest. 

AE: [00:20:13] Probably. He just 

CA: [00:20:14] felt distant from all of my years of Latin. 

AE: [00:20:17] So. They weren't particularly subtle.

Were they? They were not, no. 

CA: [00:20:23] I mean, if you knew 

AE: [00:20:24] Google away, but later in court, Keith would claim that the organization was completely run by the female organization members and they were all consenting adults. So Keith has had polyamorous relationships, his entire life. Good for him. Yeah. So up until now, they were pretty open.

Um, a lot of people came back and said that some people didn't quite understand that he was seeing other people, but at this point, women were starting to make like, Devotional lifetime commitments to him. So they were saying, Keith, only going to be with you. I'm only going to have you as a sexual partner while he was maintaining relationships with, with others.

CA: [00:21:03] And were they all aware?

AE: [00:21:05] Not all of them were aware. 

CA: [00:21:07] Okay. So that's the problem with their ethics statement? Correct? Correct. Is. Ethical non-monogamy is great, you know, super supportive, but you've got to kind of have the, everybody needs to be in the know. 

AE: [00:21:20] Yeah, yeah. For the dos organization is a familiar one because six women were chosen basically handpicked by Keith and they were to go out.

And get six more women each to bring to the dos. This is a true pyramid scheme. Yes. So it said that 15 to 20 women were a part of dos and these women had made a vow of loyalty to Keith and consenting essentially to be in this organization, having sex with him. Some considering that them to be sex slaves,

CA: [00:21:51] I'm uncomfortable with all of this.

AE: [00:21:54] Yes. It's a damn mess. Well, I don't know what Keith is doing. 

CA: [00:21:59] You know, I was trying to be supportive of 

AE: [00:22:01] Keith. No, we've abandoned all hope for Keith. 

CA: [00:22:04] Yeah, I think for how far are we into this? Like 25 minutes? There is no hope for Keith. There's no team 

AE: [00:22:11] Keith, 

CA: [00:22:12] no net, no team. Jacob team Edward 

AE: [00:22:15] actually are going to get into some serious stuff.

Oh, okay. So this is where the just, you know, we're, we're going to be talking about some graphic sexual content, so just does that. Content warning content warning. Okay. So these women were required to provide some type of blackmail to Keith before joining the dos. So this could be a nude photo or a family secret.

Um, the idea was to. Present this to him to prevent you from leaving the organization for fear that Keith would make that information public essentially to hold you accountable. Yeah. 

CA: [00:22:47] Or to blackmail. I mean, he literally called it. Wait, why did he call it? You had to give him a piece of blackmail for you 

AE: [00:22:53] essentially.

Yeah. You provided your own life. Okay. It's, it's used as an accountability tool. So, you know, I 

CA: [00:23:02] also don't want to judge these women, um, which I think in the way that it's easy, people are telling the story, not you specifically, but wherever you found your sources for this, like obviously there's some victim blaming here with women provided their own blackmail.

They were already. Indoctrinated into a cult at this point. Oh 

AE: [00:23:23] yeah. I mean, the cult leader is saying, Hey, give me something, that's a value to you for me to potentially use against you. 

CA: [00:23:28] Show me that I can trust you or whatever else. 

AE: [00:23:31] And then literally he's like, this will be used against you. If you make me, like, don't push me to that place.

The beginning of every meeting, the women were required to provide a group nude photo to Keith. Fully naked, fully frontal. These ladies were also required to be on call 24 seven and they couldn't, they needed to respond to his text messages within 60 seconds. 

CA: [00:23:53] I mean, what if you leave your phone in the other room and you're taking a shit, there was, 

AE: [00:23:59] there was none of that.

I mean, this is like, Classic controlling. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's turning it's mind games. Yeah. The initiation into the organization is by far like the hardest part for me. Um, and the allegations of this were brought forward by Sarah Edmondson to the New York state department of health after her initiation.

To the dos. 

CA: [00:24:19] So we are definitely team Sarah.

AE: [00:24:21] We are for sure team Sarah, the initiation required the women to be blindfolded, to be held down naked. So they would lay on a massage table and then three other women in the organization would hold them down. Okay. They would then have to say, quote, master, please brand me.

It would be an honor. And then they would then be branded on their hip. Or pelvis. I know the women were told that the symbol was a Latin symbol. However, when you turn the image to the side, it's clearly the initial of Keith Reiner's initials. Yeah. I'm just 

CA: [00:24:56] processing this, like the mental, the mental games that this man is playing on these women.

AE: [00:25:02] Yeah. Super problematic. Good thing. We paired this with, um, the funnest puppet. I cannot wait to get 

CA: [00:25:10] into the movie, but this is exactly why. I mean, normally, yeah, I go first with my psychology thing, but I'm so glad that we decided that when we're talking about cults, you have to go first so that we can end on a light note and have fun with it because this is dark and this is heavy.

And. I mean, so many women have experienced trauma in general. Yeah. So it's hard to hear about it, but I think that there's also a curiosity about the mindset that goes into people who join cults, cult leaders, um, and how things like this really happened. It's 

AE: [00:25:44] interesting because Keith considers himself to be one of the smartest people on earth.

Um, he's said to have like a super high IQ. Um, and so he really, really values his own opinions and beliefs and he really does believe what he's saying. Yeah. So all of this is being explained away from his internal mind about how they owe him something because of, cause it makes 

CA: [00:26:08] sense. He is. Yeah. He's the smartest.

Just ask anybody. 

AE: [00:26:12] Right. Um, so after Sarah was so brave to come forward and it was a huge media sensation about the called Keith fled to Mexico, and he was arrested in Mexico and was charged with sex trafficking and forced labor. He pled not guilty. Alison Mack and a woman named Claire Brafman were indicted also for sex trafficking charges as being leaders of.

The organization, Alison Mack pled guilty to racketeering and Claire Broffman to visa fraud, basically settling for lesser charges. Right? And in June of 2019, quote, Raniere was convicted by a Brooklyn jury of racketeering sex trafficking, forced labor, conspiracy, and wire fraud, conspiracy. And that was in less than five hours.

The minimum charge for these crimes is 15 years. 

CA: [00:27:02] Okay. So he was charged in what year did you say? 2019. 

AE: [00:27:06] Okay. Well, in, in 2019, he was convicted. He was charged in October 2020. Okay. To 120 years. 

CA: [00:27:14] Okay. Oh my God. Okay. So we don't have to worry about him. Right? He's 

AE: [00:27:18] going away. He's going away. He also received a fine of $1.75 million, which was to me, was weird drop in the bucket for also like fining you for having a sex cult.

Or a cult in general where you've caused so much harm, like a fine, 

CA: [00:27:32] I mean, he ripped off how many thousands of people like you, you gave out the figure earlier of what? 6 million, 16 

AE: [00:27:40] million, 43 million, 43 million. Here's the thing, like take the sex part out of it. Like you can be enlightened all you want.

Just. You know, you can, you're welcome to charge people to come up with some crazy cool ideologies. Like, that's fine. Like everybody's looking for their purpose, right? Yeah. Go for it. But, you know, so I don't, I don't fault an organization for like, I don't know, having ideas. It's obviously just the, um, it sounds 

CA: [00:28:06] like he got people to pay him brainwashed to them, to whatever extent, and then convinced them to join his sex cult.

Like I absolutely think he owes reparations in some 

AE: [00:28:19] way. 1.7, 1.7, 5 million. The word fine is so weird. I think reparations would be better, but it's not going to the families or to them. Well, who's it going to, I would think the government, 

CA: [00:28:31] Oh, well, that's not great. I think I should go back to the families or the people who really experienced harm.

AE: [00:28:38] Yeah. He began serving his sentence in January of this year. Praise be. So, yeah, that is NXIVM. My friends. What is so weird to me is that, um, You know, Alex, Alex Mac, Alison Mac was one of the head people who was, I mean, she actively participated in all these things and she was part of the organization. She was organizing this, they referred to it as a sorority.

Right. However, She's being controlled by this other person. 

CA: [00:29:09] So, yeah. Well, what I think is interesting about this, there's a great movie called the rabbit proof fence, which is actually about, uh, Aboriginal people in Australia. And we watched it and one of my classes in grad school and talked about how oftentimes whoever is really in control.

Will find people who are willing to police other people. Who are being oppressed. So I think that there's something about a woman controlling and manipulating other women that at first women are very trusting of that person, but then the betrayal is so much more painful. 

AE: [00:29:49] Yeah, there are women involved in human trafficking.

I mean, Oh, absolutely. You know, 

CA: [00:29:55] which is also awful. And I mean, that, that's what this was to some extent as well, but just the fact that anyone can be involved in this and especially the people who are often. Oppressed or who are oppressing people who are, who share so much in common with them. 

AE: [00:30:10] These people have come forward since then to tell their stories.

And, uh, we've seen a lot more light into what the organization was actually about. And there's obviously this. Veil over the true intentions behind this, this guy, right. Was clearly trying to harm. Yeah. Instead of what he had originally been. Yeah. Preaching. So 

CA: [00:30:32] I do want to add just one more thing before we wrap up.

And that is that even the women who were part of this and had any role in it were also victims like everyone, other than this. Guy was a victim. So I just want to make sure that that came across clearly. And not that I'm blaming a woman for doing this to another woman without seeing her, you know, as a victim as 

AE: [00:30:56] well.

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, she, yeah, it sucks. I mean, when you're. Part of an organization where you're picked to be one of the six people to do a lead off of this large multi-million dollar organization is flattering. Also you're spending time with this guy who you believe has all the answers, right. 

CA: [00:31:15] It's and then he's putting faith in you to help control the organization.

It's such a mental game. Yeah. 

AE: [00:31:23] All right. You ready to talk about puppets? That was NXIVM. Thank you so much. 

CA: [00:31:27] We'll be here all weekend or for at least another 30 minutes. I am so ready to talk to you about labyrinth. Let's do it. Okay. Little background on labyrinth before we really get into it. Okay.

Labyrinth was made, um, and released in the summer of 1968. Oh, good times. Way back long, long time agos days. Uh, the director was Jim Henson, who you may know from the Muppets and a few other things. I don't remember what, right this second, I say the Muppets, there were three producers. Eric Rattray, David Lozier, and George Lucas.

Yes. 

AE: [00:32:05] You can tell from the scene of the end where the guns make pew-pew. 

CA: [00:32:09] Ooh, yep. That was a copy and paste. For future projects. Um, and the writer was Terry Jones, which I had to look him up because he was the one person, I didn't know, but he also wrote Monte Python. Oh shit. 

AE: [00:32:23] So we will be coming back to you we'll see you in about six months or so 

CA: [00:32:28] we also have.

Or the movie starred Jennifer Connlley as Sarah and David Bowie as the goblin King or Jareth King Jareth. Here are just some opening thoughts and we can dive in. This is a direct quote from me as I was watching the movie. Labyrinth is like Alice in Wonderland meets wizard of Oz. If the wizard of Oz had Muppets, or if you look at it from the perspective of Jareth, it is Peter pan or Puck from Midsummer night's dream.

If both were written as fever dreams with the Muppets, you're not wrong. I felt like that was the most accurate description of labyrinth. It's. Um, 

AE: [00:33:08] one of those movies that feels like it's never going to end. It's 

CA: [00:33:12] like, well, it's because the plot meanders in a really interesting way,

AE: [00:33:16] will you go back to the it's?

Like, I mean, you're stuck in a labyrinth. That's kind of a time warp experience. 

CA: [00:33:22] It's just a jump to the left, but this movie for me gets a 10 out of 10. Oh, it has age. 

AE: [00:33:28] Oh, I'm going to start 

CA: [00:33:30] rating our cult. Films, you gave it a 10 out of 10. I gave it a 10 out of 10. Like this movie has aged. Well, the story is interesting.

It has something for everybody. The music is great. And David Bowie's costumes, 

AE: [00:33:44] David's Bowie, David's Bowie. Let's talk about David's Bowie Bowie. That's what we see. 

CA: [00:33:51] I mean, which is interesting because as a kid, I don't remember it 

AE: [00:33:56] throw a leotard on anybody. You're going to see all kinds of stuff 

CA: [00:34:00] also. I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

It was definitely stuffed. Oh, 

AE: [00:34:06] well, yeah. I mean, it's very round. 

CA: [00:34:10] I mean, are they not 

AE: [00:34:13] whatever, some type of cup action happening? 

CA: [00:34:17] Oh five. Sure. I'm glad you would have known this. 

AE: [00:34:21] I will talk about, um, we'll get out a pencil and a paper. Okay. 

CA: [00:34:27] Um, so a lot of after I watched this movie, I was really curious what other people had said about it, because it's such a strange movie to wrap your mind around that.

I went to the experts. Okay. Um, Wikipedia has a fandom page for labyrinth, which is great. There was also an article by the Atlantic and one more we'll link it anyways. So the basic story is kind of a hero's journey. Like the heroes faced with a problem and they have to go and, you know, fight bad guys. And then ultimately, Um, return home learn, which isn't like a typical heroes trajectory.

This one's in the form of a fairy tale. There's some thought that Mr. Henson was inspired by the brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson. And like there was so I'm sure that we're all familiar with the brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson, but they are the much darker, more troublesome versions of the original, the OG fairytales that Disney made pretty.

And palatable, like at the end of the little mermaid, I believe she committed suicide and turns into seafoam Cinderella. 

She 

AE: [00:35:37] cuts off her foot, the sisters eat their feet off to fin to the shoe. 

CA: [00:35:41] Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like this was kind of similar, except that like, it was a cautionary tale. Let's go back to the telling of dark stories.

But to what end is really my question to you. So at the very beginning, Sarah's a normal kid. If not a bit of a dreamer, I think she resonates for me because even before she's taken into the goblin world, she's already preoccupied with daydreaming. Like she's, she's a brat. Really. I could see that 

AE: [00:36:09] "it's not fair" which she says a hundred times.

CA: [00:36:12] That's so true. We actually have a direct quote from the movie about it not being fair. And what the goblin King says to her. This movie is so quotable. Oh yeah. 

AE: [00:36:22] Yeah. I'm wearing a shirt 

CA: [00:36:23] with a quote. Of the labyrinth. Uh, let me see your baby with the power shirt. Yep. Yep. You're rocking it. It's a good song.

It's a great song. I listened to it on the way over. She doesn't want to babysit her little half-brother she's annoyed with her, um, dad and step-mom going out and leaving her to be a responsible adult. This fairy tale is a coming of age story. Sarah has to grow up and accept some responsibility. Yeah.

What it boils down to. So, let me tell you about the babe. Okay. What babe, the babe, with the power, what power, who do you do? Do what? Remind me of the babe. So 

AE: [00:37:00] I'm not going to do that. 

CA: [00:37:03] I almost joined you, but you don't want to hear my singing voice. I want to hear yours. Nobody wants to hear me. Sarah is on a quest to find her brother so that he doesn't turn into a goblin, which is like the threat.

And only one of the storylines, like there's so much happening 

AE: [00:37:19] there. Yeah. It's an onion situation. Yes. 

CA: [00:37:22] Like we have the goblin King who is very sexualized, has the thing in his pants that you can't help, but ignore there, like all these valuable life lessons. And then there's the risk of your brother becoming a goblin.

Yeah. I'm curious. Like, are all the goblins. Sibling like little siblings that older siblings couldn't get back. Like, is that where goblins come from? 

AE: [00:37:47] So I don't want to be insensitive, but one of the goblins legit to me looks like Stephen Avery's mom, whose mom, Steven Avery for Making a Murderer.

Yeah. I'll make a thing, but. Just like one of the goblins anyway, continue. 

CA: [00:38:05] But yeah. So I'm really, I'm curious about the origin of the goblins and I'd love to get a backstory. I know that Jim Henson is no longer with us. Um, but if anyone would like to write the backstory for the goblins, I'd appreciate it.

Okay. So, like I said earlier, when I was a kid, I don't actually remember noticing David. David's Bowie being on display as much. So like I said, they stuffed his pants and I was sorry to have to break that to you. One, one article says, um, they did it because it's David friggin Bowie. They had to turn him up to an 11.

Oh, like he's already so great. How can they make him even greater? Let's give him a huge penis. He was supposed to be a symbol of fertility. Oh, wow. Which makes a lot of sense. If you think about his magic balls that he's always playing with. Oh yeah. Um, to be a kid, to a movie, they were not being very subtle.

AE: [00:39:01] Yeah. They're um, they remind me of those, those. Two that you like move. I mean, it's exactly what he does. He moves around in your hands, but it's supposed to be, I think it's from like Eastern Madison. Yeah. 

CA: [00:39:13] Yeah. I feel like I just kind of missed all the sexual overtones when I was watching this as a kid.

AE: [00:39:19] Well, also he's in with Sarah who's 

CA: [00:39:23] right. Okay. Is he in love with her? Is she. An object to him. Like it's so unclear. I think she's kind of drawn to the danger of him. Like he's a villain, but he's also a suitor and the King. So he has power and he's also kind of like a father figure and taking care of Toby, the little brother, it's just very confusing.

It's a mess. Yeah. Sarah of course sees herself as the victim, going back to our victim complex that we were talking about with the cults. Jareth also, interestingly, seems to see himself as a victim, Sarah says, or Jareth says Sarah beware, I've been super generous. Up till now I can be cruel can be so cruel.

If you could just re-enact the entire soundtrack for this saying, I know, I know. I love it. I love a good musical. Me to the heart wants what the heart wants and the heart wants musicals. Dammit. Sarah says, uh, generous. What have you done? That's generous. And Jareth says everything. Everything that you have wanted.

I've done. You asked that the child be taken, that I took him. You cowered before me. I was frightening or I have reordered time. I have turned the world upside down and I have done it all for you. I'm exhausted from living up to your expectations. Isn't that generous. If this man isn't a cult leader, 

AE: [00:40:44] he's in love with her.

I that's my personal opinion. I, so he he's all alone with his goblins and the occasional baby. And he's totally obsessed with her. She's gorgeous also. She's under age, so be careful, but yeah, none of that's my opinion. 

CA: [00:40:59] I see where you're coming with this. I think that for him, it's a power trip. I don't think it's love.

I think it is lost. It's lost and, um, uh, a super sick need to feel like he can control her, which he can. I mean, I don't think that you poison the person you love with a peach. I just don't think that you 

AE: [00:41:22] do. That's a good point. Are we going to talk about 

CA: [00:41:24] Hoggle? We are going to talk about Hoggle. So at the end that Sarah ultimately reclaims her autonomy by stating you have no power over me, which is hella relatable.

Like, you know, you've got to eventually recognize that you're the person is abusive and horrible and that they don't have the power over you. We're going to come to Hoggle in just a second. Okay. Hogwarts. I forget what else he is called. All the H names. I wonder if JK Rowling got the inspiration for Hogwarts from labyrinth?

Cause the moving staircase. Yeah. The casual mention of Hogwarts JK Rowling would have been about the right age to have watched labyrinth. 

AE: [00:42:04] Oh shit. You just cracked the 

CA: [00:42:05] code. We also don't like JK Rowling. She's a turf. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're going to talk about how this is a coming of age story, because that's the plot line that I was most interested in because we got our nice love story.

That's actually super creepy and not nice at all. We've got a kidnapping situation going on and then we've got a coming of age story. Sarah is facing, losing her innocence in several ways. And some people have even like their eyes, that Toby is the SIM. Like her little brother's her symbol of innocence and the Goblin King is taking it away from her.

Huh. Which I thought was really cool. And I had not considered it in that way. I mean either. Um, but she's transitioning from childhood to adulthood, which is terrible and kind of feels like amaze. You don't know which way to go. Like I'm 30 years old and I still feel like I hit dead ends and have to turn around and start over frequently.

You have to fall into traps and learn how to trust people. So Jareth brings her to the goblin kingdom. And literally sets a timer, which is soups on the nose for coming of age. Like you've got 13 hours and then you are no longer right. You know, a baby, uh, another aspect of growing up is learning who or what to trust and learning about forgiveness and betrayal.

And here comes Hoggle. Oh, she learns that the world doesn't revolve around her. And then she has to prioritize getting her brother back and caring for him, which is also a lesson on learning to focus on. What's important. At what point Sarah says something is not fair. And Jareth responds with you say that so often I wonder what your basis for comparison is.

Um, which I just love yeah. Gonna get right on a pillow. Fairness can be a whole topic too. Anyways. So Sarah meets up with a scarecrow 10 man and cowardly lion wrong movie. Sarah meets up with Hoggle, Sir Diddimus, and Ludo, which is basically the same thing. Like, 

AE: [00:43:57] Oh, I hadn't acquainted that, but 

CA: [00:43:58] yeah. I mean really the parallels.

To wizard of Oz and Alison Wonderland. Like she literally falls down the hole. Yeah, she does. She, yeah, she has the Cheshire cat. Who's pointing her in two different directions. Like, you know, so one of my favorite quotes from Hoggle is you've got to understand my position. I'm a coward and Jareth scares me.

Or how those two face and advisor and friend to Sarah, then he betrays her. Then she forgives him. They have a whole Bernie whirlwind romance. 

AE: [00:44:27] You know, it reminds me of like being an elementary school and like, you have friends, but you secretly hate them. Right. 

CA: [00:44:32] Maybe even high school or maybe even in real life as an adult, sometimes you have to be nice to people.

Yeah. Even when you don't like them. Oh, I know. 

AE: [00:44:42] No, but I love all my friends though. Yeah, me too. 

CA: [00:44:44] All seven of them. I mean, at this point, we're not going to call someone, a friend that we don't, we don't like, that's true. We have grown, 

AE: [00:44:51] but yeah, just the two fastness of like, being like, okay, are we friends today?

Or are we not friends today? It's hard. It's hard to know. 

CA: [00:44:57] Well, yeah. Another thing I did know about Hoggle ware or didn't remember about Hoggle from when I was a kid was the first time we meet him. He's literally like holding his peen and peeing 

AE: [00:45:08] peeing into the, yeah. Is it the, is it the bog of stench 

CA: [00:45:12] now it's like a fountain or something.

Okay. Okay. He gets to be Prince at the ball bench. Yeah. Later, also on his jacket. He literally has two faces. Oh, like on the back of his jacket, I go look for that. Well, Easter egg, again, they're telling you right off the bat, like this is not somebody you can trust, right? So is he the scarecrow? Is he the Cheshire cat?

I don't really know. He's all of the above. Then we have Sir Didymus who was a Fox night 

AE: [00:45:39] ish, a dog. He rides a dog. I thought he was a dog riding a dog. Is that a silly thought? I think he just 

CA: [00:45:46] barks or TBD. We don't really, he said he's a goblin, he's a Fox dog goblin that rides a dog that just happens to look like her dog Merlin.

Yeah. Oh yeah. I forgot it is Merlin. Huh? Yeah, except in the goblin kingdom, it's Ambrocious, Ambrosious?. So I think he's like supposed to represent bravery. 

AE: [00:46:09] Yeah. But it's the coward 

CA: [00:46:11] bravery too. Yeah. He's the cowardly lion. Maybe, maybe story. 

AE: [00:46:16] Let me tell you, watching this with a ten-year-old. When he walks across the stones and the bog of stench and it's far noises that went over really well.

It 

CA: [00:46:26] was pretty funny. I mean, they've got pee jokes and fart jokes. It's great. One more because you want, I think that's what I love so much about this movie. Is there something for every age, like if you're watching it as a kid, you may not know notice David's Bowie, but you're going to notice the fart jokes.

As an adult, you notice the sexual overtones and the weird things that are happening and how it's multilayered and, and David's Bowie. Um, we need to make David's Bowie merch. I'm sure it's taken Ludo is my face. No, no Ludo. 

AE: [00:47:02] I love him. Ludo would be a really good, good dog name. 

CA: [00:47:06] I was thinking about that. I definitely added.

Ludo and Ambrosia to my pet names list. Yeah. So, um, Ludo is loyal and kind, and he's a really good friend, 

AE: [00:47:19] strong, silent type. I would argue. 

CA: [00:47:21] I would agree similar to Groot  mh-hm I am Groot. So 

AE: [00:47:28] I feel like this is this the same characters recycled over and over and over again. 

CA: [00:47:33] But I mean, that's all of.

What cinematic history is it's yeah, there are. I think I heard that there are only like 30 actual storylines in the world and we're just retelling the same, like 30 to 35 stories over and 

AE: [00:47:48] over. That's why hallmark does so well, because 

CA: [00:47:51] it is really honed in on their specific storyline. It's a small town Baker going to the big city.

Or 

AE: [00:47:59] it's already 10 guy going into small town. 

CA: [00:48:02] It's one or the other girl 

AE: [00:48:03] that is misunderstood somebody's parents have just died. 

CA: [00:48:07] Yep. This movie, however, it takes at least five different storylines, combines them together, throws in Bowie and some really amazing musical numbers and calls it a day. Yeah.

Like whether or not it flows. Does not matter, judge, our, you can choose your and adventure probably. But what all of these characters basically mean to me is that you need people to help you be brave. Like I'm looking for meaning in this. Yeah. I think you and I had a conversation recently. Uh, cause you're the only person I talked to, um, about like where did poets.

Actually mean to say the things that they said, or are we assigning meaning to it? Oh yeah. And I feel like this is certainly one of those cases where there may have been some underlying themes, but I'm definitely just assigning meaning to this where Jim Hansen may not have meant for meaning to be 

AE: [00:49:02] well back to the cult thing.

You just kind of read into it a lot of times information that you're digesting plays a role in what you need 

CA: [00:49:10] in that moment. Yeah. That's absolutely true. An excellent intersection there. So proud of you 

AE: [00:49:16] I'm searching for it constantly. 

CA: [00:49:18] Now I know me too, which is really cool. Also, I like in preparing for this and thinking about cults, I was like, Jareth is totally a cult leader.

He has a much bigger cult following than just the goblins at this point. Like we are all his little goblins or big fans, big fans, fortunately he's or asked me for money or blackmail. But labyrinth had a really mixed response when it came out, a lot of people called it cinematically, ugly and awful and stated they never really came alive.

AE: [00:49:50] Are you fucking kidding me? There's puppets. How could it be? Of course it's alive. 

CA: [00:49:55] Well, I mean as much as puppets are alive. 

AE: [00:49:58] Well, I think it's very dimensional. 

CA: [00:50:01] They come alive in your heart. It came alive in my heart. Other people thought it had excitement and thrills and something for all people. Rotten tomatoes gave it, I think a 76%.

Okay. I've seen worse. It did not do well in the box office. It did not even grow. Um, half of what they spent on it. Oh shit. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it actually did really, really poorly for like the first few years 

AE: [00:50:23] until that hot topic came about. Right. 

CA: [00:50:26] Everyone wants to watch labyrinth. In fact, it did so poorly that Jim Henson never directed another feature film again.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, he considered it to be his biggest failure. Yeah. So, but the set, the goblin Muppets, everything was actually really incredible for the time. So none of it was, um, green screened. There was no, what did they call it? CGI. It was all animatronic. It was set. It was, yeah, yeah. Was real the, when she's falling down the tunnel, the hands are actual people's hands.

I love that, which is just phenomenal. 

AE: [00:51:02] Um, of like knowing how much detail. And like that, that was somebody's vision. And like, I think it's fabulous. I think design for me is phenomenal, 

CA: [00:51:14] which I think just goes back to why I gave it a 10 out of 10. I'm interested to hear your rating at the end. It didn't develop into a cult classic right away, but Henson died in 1990.

And by the time he died, it had been, I think four years since the movie came out at that point, people had already started there, the cult following for this film. So he was able to see his greatest failure, really become a cult success, which is very cool. So. My question for you is this is now a participatory podcast, if you had to choose.

So at the end of the movie, Sarah is given the option to become the queen of the goblins because Bowie is in love with her. Um, Oh, so now you have theoretically, so if you had the option to choose like a lifetime of fantasy and adventure, or go back home to your responsibilities, what would you pick? Like would you stay and be a goblin queen or would you go home to babysit your brother every weekend?

Again? I think I would 

AE: [00:52:12] go home. Okay, because I think being married to DB would be fun. Seeing David's Bowie probably also fun. However, I am such a home body. And even though we all have struggles with our personal lives and everything, I would be back here with my cats and my fiance in a heartbeat. 

CA: [00:52:37] Yeah. I understand that.

And like, I wouldn't want to be separated from my family for all eternity, but if I, like, if we were talking about the wizard of Oz and I had the option to stay on Oz, Oh, I absolutely would have like the Emerald city is my jam, the goblin kingdom less so, but I think I still would have been very tempted and it's not for the sake of like, not wanting to go back to responsibilities as much as it is.

I really love having adventures and like, I understand the appeal of Wonderland. Like I get all, I do believe me. I do too. Yeah. So that's kind of what, at the very end, I was like, Hmm, I don't, I mean, I, David Bowie does nothing for me other than he's Bowie, but. I think I'd be curious. 

AE: [00:53:22] I'd be curious. I'm curiosity would definitely get me, but yeah, the I've never really done well with films that are so like, you have to start back at the beginning.

Like that shit gives me anxiety. I think this movie does enough to move the storyline along right. Or not frustrated by the lack of progress. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, for, I would not want to do that for eternity also. 

CA: [00:53:47] Yeah. I mean, we don't want to live in the labyrinth for eternity, but the goblin kingdom, some of those guys were kind of cute.

It's snuggle buddies, horrible. So in conclusion, I love the darkness of this film. Like, don't get me wrong. I'm a Pollyanna type. And I loved Anne of green Gables. However, the full scope of childhood and life in general, I think was better examined in this film, the dark themes in this movie, the validation that transition into adulthood is terrifying.

And really unknown. It felt good and comfortable for me. I was uncomfy. Yep. Nice and comfy. One quote from the article by the Atlantic says childhood has been this way forever. Wonderful and hard and full of horror. Labyrinth just helps us remember what deep down in the dark we've always known. Oh. And actually I read that quote and then wrote the rest of my notes.

So I think that that's really what it boils down for to me is that this was just a really amazing commentary on what that experience is like. And I think we can all agree that middle school was the worst time of our lives. I would much rather have gone through the labyrinth 15 times then had to go through middle school and figure it out by myself.

Cause 

AE: [00:55:00] they're so mean. I mean, I think too, it's, it's just like, Like my family says scooting through sawdust on a hardwood memory. You're just kind of 

CA: [00:55:11] going for that, 

AE: [00:55:12] run that past, scoot, scoot through sawdust on a hardwood memory. We're going to have to write that one down from a friend of a friend, wrote a book and that's what she called it.

Nice. But, but yeah, I mean, we're just trying to figure out exactly what we want and how to get there. And yeah, there's always something we don't want to do. And it shows the lesser of two evils though. Yup. Great job. 

CA: [00:55:34] Good job to you to too, 

AE: [00:55:35] this episode two, my dear. 

CA: [00:55:37] Um, I really enjoy our 

AE: [00:55:38] Cult episodes too.

It's a nice, um, it's a nice change of pace. 

CA: [00:55:42] Yeah, they're a little shorter. Yeah. Quick in and out sexual innuendos.

AE: [00:55:50] Um, so we'll see you next month for cult episode three. Stay tuned. 

CA: [00:55:55] They might, should we drop hints throughout the month of what our next call episode will be? Our movie. Maybe then we 

AE: [00:56:02] would have to decide More than a week before 

CA: [00:56:05] that's true.

Nevermind. We take it back. Stay tuned. 

AE: [00:56:09] Uh, thank you guys so much for listening to our call adjacent episode. If you support us blink twice, 

CA: [00:56:14] and if you're out there, keep listening. 

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Shoot us an email at podwithoutanaud@gmail.Com. Our cover art is created by an actual angel Ashlie Acevedo. Our music is by Zach Smith and Ted Oliver editing by Jacob Beeson. 

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